Grave of the Fireflies.

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Postby jonmartensen » Thu Dec 12, 2002 9:07 pm

And back on topic..... Grave of the Fireflies
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Postby kthulhu » Thu Dec 12, 2002 9:22 pm

Aetherfukz wrote:You're completely freaked out it you think that the bombing of Japan was a good thing! It's not that Japan was "the good side", but neither so was the USA, the CSSR or even Germany. Nobody is "on the good side" in war. War is just cruel! Nobody wins it, besides the very Grip Reaper himself...

If your attitude is really like you wrote above there, I can only pity your lost soul, for you have no understanding of life.

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~Aetherfukz


Mmmmm.... I'd say that the US and it's allies (along with the Soviets) were definitely on the good side in WWII. Allied forces and leaders weren't the ones invading neighboring countries (well, maybe Stalin did a bit, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms) and rounding up millions of people for torment and worse just because they fit a certain racial profile and were a convenient scapegoat to rally against. If anything, I'd say the US was too slow to get into WWII. The Allied forces have (or had) little to apologize for, in my book.

Not to say that war is pretty or glamourous, but when things shake out, you can look back and say "well, they were fighting for good, they were fighting for evil". It's not always that black and white, but it's not always muddled, either.

As for Japan, they're a good example of what letting the military have too much governmental power, as well as fervent nationalism, reap. And Japan has just as much atrocious blood from that time on its hand as the US does from the atomic bombs, if not more. Korean comfort women, the rape of Nanking, mistreatment of POWs, as well as other war crimes can be attributed to the Japanese military (and government) of that time. The atomic bombs about equal it out, but they weren't entirely the innocent irradiated victims some may point them out to be. And a land invasion may have been a far worse thing, in the long run.

One thing to think about the atomic bomb droppings: they showed the world the horror that they can wrought. The hesitation to use them again that the A-bombs created is a good thing.

And UncleMilo, Mroni's attitude, besides being his own free opinion that he is entitled to, can be found worldwide, not just here in the US. Indeed, suppression of a person's free opinion is far worse, in my book, than the opinion being suppressed. Debate him, don't berate him.
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Postby CaTaClYsM » Thu Dec 12, 2002 9:28 pm

btw, did the US warn japan before their nuclear strikes?
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Postby Mroni » Thu Dec 12, 2002 9:33 pm

You mean atomic bombs the answer is yes. we warned them by pamphlet drops that if they didn't surrender we were going to use a terrible weapon on them. I don't have a problem with us using the atoms bombs because it saved us from having to invade and lose the lives of american troops.


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Postby kthulhu » Thu Dec 12, 2002 10:31 pm

As well as Japanese civilians and the army based in the country. I've read that Japanese civilians (from 15 year old girls to senior citizens) were practicing hand to hand fighting with sharpened poles for a potential American invasion, since there weren't enough guns. They were ready to beat back invasion forces or die trying.
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Postby jonmartensen » Thu Dec 12, 2002 10:38 pm

BAM!, facts beat down opinions once again in the war on foo's
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Postby kthulhu » Thu Dec 12, 2002 10:41 pm

Break yosef!
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Postby jonmartensen » Thu Dec 12, 2002 10:41 pm

kthulhu lays teh smacketh down
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Postby Mroni » Thu Dec 12, 2002 10:54 pm

lol and back on the topic of Grave of the fireflys! I thought the kid was pretty worthless actually he never did get a job!!!

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Postby KenShimazu » Thu Dec 12, 2002 11:42 pm

well other reasons you may not have known for the dropping of the a-bomb on Nagasaki and Hiroshima. The Japanese Specialist something or other 101st (a scientific research team on par with the SS) had created and developed a method to drop canisters of mosquitos infected with a strain of the black plague, in other words they had perfected a bio warfare method, or were close to that. other reasons, USA not ever really trusting the USSR wanted to end the war before the 6 month hands off by the USSR was over, basically meaning the USA wanted an Asian blockade to use against Communism (thank you McCarther ya bloody bastard)

as for the hand to hand combat training of young Japanese to old, that was mainly within Kyushu the southern most island of the Archepelgo the most logical landing point for an Allied land based invasion which would of made D-day look like a cake walk (the estimated death toll for that operation if it had happend was something close to 1.5 million for the take over of just Kyushu alone, and that was just American troops supposedly)

oh, and as a side note, we all mighty americans arn't that great either you know, we did Create interment camps for Japanese Americans during the war for fear they would leek secrets and what not, uprooting over 50 thousand Americans from their homes; yet we did nothing against German or Italian americans during the war period of 1942 - 45.

and as another side note, the most decorated units during the war, contrary to popular beleif because of Hollywood and HBO, were Japanese American units on both fronts, 157th Airborn if my memmory serves me right for Germany and another Marine Unit within the Pacific. Proves what happens when guys have something to prove. (oh and they were mainly volunteers from the said interment camps we set up for the Japanese Americans)

not to mention (yes more tangents) there were many German Americans and Italian Americans who answered the call to arms for the father/mother land before USA joined.

what does this all say, nothing probably my view point is that it's all in the past and hell can't do much shit about that can we now? better to work on stuff now.

and to keep on topic, My parents grew up post war and many of my relatives died during that war fighting for what they beleived in at the time. My own exposer when i wanted to know what was it like during that time (i posed this question to my grandmother) she suggested i watch that and a few other things. So heck, from an American view point, yep you will probably see it as a "owww japan's playing the victim role" from my view point it was simply a movie showing how it was, nothing political.

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Postby Timelessblurr » Thu Dec 12, 2002 11:47 pm

just though you all might like to know the Nagasaki was not the primary taget for the seacon A-bomb the primiry target started with a K I believe (I do nto feel like spending and hour finding the book that has the primary tagets name). That mission had problem from the get go. Nagasaki was the seaconday target. Also when the bomb was drop they did not really know what part of the town they were droping it on because of the clouds the bombdare saw an opening in the clouds and say the city. then he drop the bomb. The were not going to land the plane with the bomb in it. they were going to drop it on something. But when they land that had less the 8 gallon of full left which was not enoguh to make a seacon pass if they missed the landing.

now back to the topic I never seen this anime what is it about
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Postby KenShimazu » Thu Dec 12, 2002 11:52 pm

Korean comfort women, the rape of Nanking, mistreatment of POWs, as well as other war crimes can be attributed to the Japanese military (and government) of that time.


no offence but, this is an extreme misconception, remember winners tell the tale, not the losers.

one of the bigger issues between China/Korea and Japan are the said above. Korean Comfort woman, the probability of this on an extreme scale as Korea puts it is absurd actually and untrue, it was more like the woman of Korea, Like post war Japan, whored out their woman for money to survive, (yes 1950's Japan there was allot of catering to the US troops by Japanese Woman) a good 2/3rds of the allegations of this nature by Korea are false.

Nanking massacre in my honest to god beleif, was done by the Chinese themselves NOT the Japanese. reasons, purely a statistical reasoning and something about a picture which i don't remember how to explain.

you take the amount of people killed in Nanking, then take the number of Japanese Occupation forces in Nanking, and take into effect that the standard military rifle of the Japanese is a 5 shot bolt action rifle. standard ammunition load of about 30 shots per soldier. what you'll get is this, every japanese soldier would have been firing their weapon at a constant x shots per minute for 3 days straight to accomplish the Nanking Massacre. As stated the standard load of one soldier was about 30, take the guys with the type 100 light machine guns (which were few and far between and probably not used in China) and the heavy machine gun, and minus the guys running around distributing ammo, still doesn't work out. hence Chinese would have been involved in it.

sorry, I just don't trust history, there's bad, but then there's exageration of what happend. Germany gets fucked after the war by people thinking at any moment they'll do it again, and Japan gets fucked through a guilts that should be labeled on them

just thought you'd might want to know

Kentaro Shimazu
K.A.T. Translations[/quote]
"WOW THIS IS A GREAT VIEW!!" says I
"Yeah just don't trip..." says he
"Don't...AH crap!!!" says I as i roll down MT Fuji....
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Postby kthulhu » Thu Dec 12, 2002 11:55 pm

I've read about the internment camps for Japanese Americans, and the Japanese American military units that went on to kick ass. It's impressive, and indeed admirable, that despite being mistreated they were willing to fight, and fight well, to win a war for the same government that didn't trust them, against their own people, in a sense.
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Postby jonmartensen » Fri Dec 13, 2002 12:13 am

Thank you for posting mostly factuall information and discussing the topic rather than arguing it KenShimazu. There are to few who actually discuss here.

Yes, the whoring of korean women is much more likely than the supposed rapes performed during the Nanking massacre. The targets for the A-bomb were chosen due to the fact that they were very built up and had many buildings, this was to show the power of the A-bomb. And yes, the US wanted the surrender to come swiftly, in part due to russia's stance as a world power.

There were American internment camps of Japanese, and mainly due to the fact that they could be more easilly singled out than Germans and Italians (they weren't "Anglo Americans" :( ). And while wrong (very wrong in my opinion), it wasn't exactlly a stallag or forced labor camp. And while many Historical events should be viewed with a speculative eye, I wouldn't go so far as to say the Nanking events were a Chinese doing.

Anyways, glad to actually discuss a serious situation with some people without getting into an argument, thanks :wink:
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Postby Timelessblurr » Fri Dec 13, 2002 12:17 am

this discution kind of make you think of how some of the crap the United Stated did to japanise was bout as bad as the crap hilter did to the jews
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