Evangelion relationship to Greek?

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Postby UncleMilo » Tue Dec 03, 2002 4:52 am

CaTaClYsM wrote:btw, I don't understand how there could be any sort of "new beginning" if shinji didn't choose the whole "instrumentality complimentation" thingy. If he did on the other hand... then the name/ending would make PERFECT sense.


The new beginning is Shinji's

He redefines HIMSELF.


However, there are many thoughts that work here...

Gendo wants to create a new way for mankind with instrumentality... which is why EVAs were made... so that is another new beginning...

Then you can take the idea that the show is about mankind no longer needing ancient myths to live their lives... in this argument, the show is about the elimination of the ages of Gods... and man taking responsibility for his own life and his own actions... which would be a new beginning

Apparently, Shinji sets the pace for the future of the world... if this is the case, that is also a new beginning... if he changes the world from what it was to a new thing... but leaves man the way they are (and not some mass blob)... it would still be a new beginning

Again... all of mankind becoming a mass blob would be a new beginning... but it really is a dead end because there is no future for mankind... there is no originality... no creativity... no offspring... just stagnation.

-Uncle Milo

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Postby Aetherfukz » Tue Dec 03, 2002 5:10 am

UncleMilo wrote:Lillith was actually the second Bride of Adam...
Eve was the third.

Lillith went on to marry Cain and became the mother of all demons.

THis is very appropriate since the EVAs were made from the genetic material of Lillith in the series and are used to fight... angels....

Uhm, I always thought that Lilith was Adam's first wife, and Eva being the second after Lilith was banned from Eden... so who would be Adam's first bride then?

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Postby UncleMilo » Tue Dec 03, 2002 6:31 am

OK...

as I understand it...

God tried to create a companion for Adam, but the first one was constructed before him... and he was terrified at witnessing the event
and so this unnamed companion was removed.

God made a second companion and she was made the same way Adam was and she had her own personality and her own desires and was too strong willed for Adam to deal with and her name was Lillith (and she is just more proof on how male-centric a lot of these old stories are)

After Lillith was removed, God made Eve from Adam so she would be subservient and docile and (what a shock) Adam was cool with that.


So...

First Bride - Constructed - First Child - Constructed
Second Bride - Strong Willed - Second Child - Strong Willed
Third Bride - Docile, Subservient - Third Child - Docile, Subservient


Well... it works for me

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Postby MistyCaldwell » Tue Dec 03, 2002 6:44 am

woah...what sect or text did this stuff come out of? Never heard of it before in my life. In the baptist church, Cain's wife goes unnamed and is assumed to be one of his sisters like every other couple from the beginning.
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Postby RadicalEd0 » Tue Dec 03, 2002 11:37 am

ah real mystics dont need $500 books they can just go to the akashic records of history themselves and find everything out there :lol:
NMEAMV: PENIS
NMEAMV: IN
NMEAMV: YO
NMEAMV: MIXED
NMEAMV: DRINK
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Postby CaTaClYsM » Tue Dec 03, 2002 12:03 pm

This is a quote from the evaotaku website about how the sereis ends, and it makes alot of sense to me.

In the TV ending Shinji chose to stay with Complementation - it isn't even clear that Shinji had a choice at all. He is treated as little more than an example of the process of Complementation - which consisted if breaking down Shinji's link to reality. In the end, Shinji looks at the world of Complementation and smiling happily says "I understand! I can exist here!" He is then congratulated for his decision, by friends living and dead (Kaji), a healthy Touji with his leg still on, and even PenPen. A surreal ending scene to say the least. This ending is similar in context and theme to the ending of George Orwell's book, 1984.

Conversely, the film ends in the opposite manner. Shinji does have a choice and in the last moments of the film utterly rejects Complementation precisely because it eliminates the link to reality, it establishes a false paradise. Complementation is basically a cop-out, and Shinji has matured enough to realize this. The tone at the end of the film isn't a surreal, almost drug-induced, joyful "Congratulations!" for Shinji, but the cold and harsh reality of life.

Further, the Newtype Filmbook description for the scene states (literally):
"Amidst the many words of congratulations, a faint smile starts at the corners of Shinji's mouth (and spreads across his face).
A happy face -- that is the figure of the Complemented Shinji. This conclusion is also one form, one possibility among many."
(Translated by Bochan Bird)

Note, "the figure of the Complemented Shinji". Pretty cut and dry.

So in other words, one part of the community is waging war on another part of the community because they take their community seriously enough to want to do so. Then they tell the powerless side to get over the loss cause it's just an online community. I'm glad people make so much sense." -- Tab
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Postby JustAnOrdinaryPanda » Tue Dec 03, 2002 12:56 pm

Meh, I don't believe anything outside of the bible anyway...

And you're totally over-analysing Eva, its not as deep as you say it is...
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Postby UncleMilo » Tue Dec 03, 2002 2:22 pm

CaTaClYsM wrote:This is a quote from the evaotaku website about how the sereis ends, and it makes alot of sense to me.

In the TV ending Shinji chose to stay with Complementation - it isn't even clear that Shinji had a choice at all. He is treated as little more than an example of the process of Complementation - which consisted if breaking down Shinji's link to reality. In the end, Shinji looks at the world of Complementation and smiling happily says "I understand! I can exist here!" He is then congratulated for his decision, by friends living and dead (Kaji), a healthy Touji with his leg still on, and even PenPen. A surreal ending scene to say the least. This ending is similar in context and theme to the ending of George Orwell's book, 1984.

Conversely, the film ends in the opposite manner. Shinji does have a choice and in the last moments of the film utterly rejects Complementation precisely because it eliminates the link to reality, it establishes a false paradise. Complementation is basically a cop-out, and Shinji has matured enough to realize this. The tone at the end of the film isn't a surreal, almost drug-induced, joyful "Congratulations!" for Shinji, but the cold and harsh reality of life.

Further, the Newtype Filmbook description for the scene states (literally):
"Amidst the many words of congratulations, a faint smile starts at the corners of Shinji's mouth (and spreads across his face).
A happy face -- that is the figure of the Complemented Shinji. This conclusion is also one form, one possibility among many."
(Translated by Bochan Bird)

Note, "the figure of the Complemented Shinji". Pretty cut and dry.



Clearly the people who wrote this have no idea what the show was about. They clearly missed the whole point and missed even the most obvious of messages in the show. This analysis ignores so many things that are talked about/shown/and theorized. This is a pathetic interpretation

Anyone who says Shinji chooses merge into the "mass-mind" ignores the fact that EVEN THE SHOW questions if Instrumentality is the only course.

It is a dead end option.

You keep insisting that this is the way the show ends. I don't know how many things I can bring up and have brought up to argue this.

The facts are there... and I am well aware of the fact that there are 1000s and 1000s of people who saw the show and didn't get it. The creator of the series was besieged by hate letters and END OF EVA was made with that overall "FUCK YOU" feel to it (and some of the hate letters flicker by in that movie, I might add)

Anyway... the view you posted is very badly thought out and just plain wrong.

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Postby UncleMilo » Tue Dec 03, 2002 2:25 pm

MistyCaldwell wrote:woah...what sect or text did this stuff come out of? Never heard of it before in my life. In the baptist church, Cain's wife goes unnamed and is assumed to be one of his sisters like every other couple from the beginning.


As I have said... this is the Khaballa... which is pre-Biblical. It is, to my understanding, the belief system that would evolve into the Jewish belief system.

The Bible used nowadays is just the stories that have been adjusted and cleaned up and otherwise changed...

Most faiths are just modifications and changes from previous belief systems.

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Postby JustAnOrdinaryPanda » Tue Dec 03, 2002 2:27 pm

I see no reason why that can't be a perfectly adequate interpretation of the series. There is not one right answer. You don't know everything, quit thinkin your the dogs bollocks and accept that its an ambiguous ending, where people can interpret their own things from it.
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Postby UncleMilo » Tue Dec 03, 2002 2:27 pm

RadicalEd0 wrote:ah real mystics dont need $500 books they can just go to the akashic records of history themselves and find everything out there :lol:


Well... I never said my friend was a mystic... he reads books about things.

His book collection rivals many others movie collections...

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Postby UncleMilo » Tue Dec 03, 2002 2:33 pm

JustAnOrdinaryPanda wrote:I see no reason why that can't be a perfectly adequate interpretation of the series. There is not one right answer. You don't know everything, quit thinkin your the dogs bollocks and accept that its an ambiguous ending, where people can interpret their own things from it.


This from the person who just posted that people are over thinking the series.

Damn those who use their brains! Damn them!

Your ignorance is quite obvious.

YES! Evangelion is up for interpretation... there is a lot that is vague so that there can be discussion... but the show isn't just a lot of mumbled, uninteligeble phrases... it isn't just blobs of color that move on an animated palette.

No... there are LINES OF DIALOGUE and there are THEMES IN THE TEXT OF THE SHOW

There are certain points that are being made in this show... and those points are being made to be discussed.

People who make theis theories of Evangelion who IGNORE these points are going to have VERY FLAWED interpretations

If this simple idea is over your head, I suggest you go to less difficult shows.

There are reasons things happen in that show and if you miss that, you miss the point of the show.

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Postby JustAnOrdinaryPanda » Tue Dec 03, 2002 2:40 pm

You took my comment SO wrong. I said that people here were over-analysing the series, and you took that to mean that I was oblivious to the many many references that are in there, many that are obscure and reasonably irrelevant. That I thought the show lacked these things at all. You're a bit quick to call people stupid...

You NOW say that it's up for interpretation and arguement, when before you accused someone of being 'just plain wrong'.

You're superior attitude and condescension is just getting annoying.
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Postby Lunatic » Tue Dec 03, 2002 3:00 pm

flint_the_dwarf wrote:Evangelion actually does make sense. Me and my bro spent all this weekend dissecting it with our various knowledge of philosophy. It's pretty convoluted at first, but it makes sense.

Actually, it was more like we spent the weekend with me dissecting it and you saying "shut UP!!" :wink:

The thing with Eva is that there's a whole slew of different levels of meaning to it: at least 2 philosophical, a social-psychological, a Freudian, and a Judeo-Christian level. Plenty of people understand those levels, even if there is a lot of disagreement about them. The level on which Eva probably doesn't make sense, however, is the literal level. I suspect that Anno might have done this on purpose to downplay the importance of the literal level. At a number of places in the series, the objective, factual events that have taken place so far are reviewed in a matter of minutes, as if to say, "You see? I just summarized every Angel attack in less than half an episode. That's how important they are." I hear people all the time say that they "understand" Evangelion, but I defy anyone to come up with a complete explanation of the literal aspect of the plot. I've yet to see anyone do it.
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Postby UncleMilo » Tue Dec 03, 2002 3:03 pm

JustAnOrdinaryPanda wrote:You took my comment SO wrong. I said that people here were over-analysing the series, and you took that to mean that I was oblivious to the many many references that are in there, many that are obscure and reasonably irrelevant. That I thought the show lacked these things at all. You're a bit quick to call people stupid...

You NOW say that it's up for interpretation and arguement, when before you accused someone of being 'just plain wrong'.

You're superior attitude and condescension is just getting annoying.


You just want your cake and eat it to, to use the old expression.

Yes... EVA is up for interpretation...the messages it talks about are complex and have been topics of discussions for ages and ages.

however...

like any piece of art, there are obvious messages that are there to help compose the artist's message.

You can't just go and say something like "Evangelion is all about the writer's hatred of chocolate", because there is nothing in the show to support such a statement.

There are messages in there that you have to read/grasp/understand.

Thick-heads like you argue that to look for these points is a waste of time... you accuse people of over-analyzing, but given the remarks you have made, it sounds to me like it's just more effort THAN YOU are willing to put in... but since I hang out with people who have put in a lot more effort than you ever will on the series... and because I have been shown many things that exist in the series that most would never have guessed at... and because I hapeen to have had schooling in the language of film, in philosophy and psychology... I have found many of the messages on my own as well. Obviously, among my friends, we all came up with varried interpretations of the show...

but people who just want to say "eh... Evangelion is about what I want it to be about" are simply being lazy in their thinking.

Most art has a reason for being.

Most artists have a message they want to give you in their art.

"Up for interpretation" doesn't mean it's about EVERYTHING

"Having an open mind" doesn't mean being accepting of everythying... it means that you are willing to consider things before taking your view on that thing.


If my manner seems "superior" to you, then I'll take that as a compliment.

If I'm annoying to you... well.. then that's good, because your lazy ignorance and desire to argue that people just should stop at a certain point rather than work with their minds beyond the point of minimal effort has been really quite annoying to me... and I've had to deal with hundreds of people on various message boards with that same "I don't want to think THAT hard about this" attitude.

That's why I hate talking EVA on these boards...

but this conversation had started so well and I was trying to pick up some new facts that I had not heard before and I was really enjoying the messages of the earlier posters

but then the throngs of the stupid had to come to the board...as they come to tall EVA threads and flout their ignorance

and demand that those who have put thought into the show are "over analyzing it"

or another common cry (because I have heard so many) that "we have been duped... that EVA isn't about anything and it was made vague so it could appear clever"

I have heard hundreds of various arguments that boil down to this line: "I hate EVA because I didn't understand it... and I'm going to blame the series for my own inability to understand it."


I don't care what you think. I have heard your arguments so many times before and it's nothing new. I say this because I'm not singling you out... you're just another one as far as I'm concerned. Another one of the many.


None the less... that's it.

I'm always happy to talk EVA with people who really want to talk about it and on many occasions I have given my e-mail address out. I'll be happy to take e-mails... but I'm just going to leave this thread.

I don't need to knock my head against bricks any further.

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