Masking Issue

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Masking Issue

Postby BurningLeaves » Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:05 am

I'm having this problem, it's done this now on two videos I have tried to mask. With the first I thought it may have been an issues with the source having blended frames but now that it's happening again I really don't know.. Hopefully it's something stupid someone can point out for me.


So I go frame by frame masking out my scene and when I get to the next frame the mask from the previous frame appears and will not go away.

This is a SS of the character as I have him masked in vegas
Spoiler :
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This is a SS of the preview window, as you can see the masked area is completely different from that of the mask that is supposed to be on that frame. Ignore crappy lighting I turned it all the way up so I could see better masking a dark outline out of a dark background. The issue carries over into export and I cant find a way around it apart from just saying screw it vegas and doing it in an image editor instead. What this is actually showing is the mask outline from the previous frame.
Spoiler :
Image


The frame rate of the project and preview matches that of the clips and I have tried to delete the mask and start over but the second I click the frame with the mask tool the previous frames mask instantly appears on preview window (though not in pan/crop menu) I have tried also masking it out and saving the mask so I could just click on the frame and load the mask, again that did not work. Any tips would be greatly appreciated, hopefully it's me just being stupid.
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Re: Masking Issue

Postby Enigma » Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:15 am

It's frame blending, Make your project the right fps or resample it
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Re: Masking Issue

Postby BurningLeaves » Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:39 am

Enigma wrote:It's frame blending, Make your project the right fps or resample it


Thanks for the reply, now for all I know I am doing something completely wrong but I do believe everything is the same frame rate. This is a SS of the project settings along with the properties of the video clip, everything is set to 29.970. I dropped a few of the clips into gspot just to make sure and it's the same. So unless there's something I'm overlooking everything is set correctly.

Spoiler :
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I played around with the resampling and it didn't make a difference. It was set to smart resample, I tried disabling it, and then forcing it but neither made it go away. I did notice something else while playing with it though, when I click off the mask to the time line I can actually see the previous frames mask being carried over onto the new frame, when I try to delete this it creates a keyframe on top of the existing key frame as soon as I touch it and then if I try to delete it it just comes back up.

Spoiler :
Image


I went back to the dvd and reripped that clip again just to make sure it wasn't that. I made sure not to blend frames when I deinterlaced and when looking at the actual clip it is not blended. The clips are lagarith. It has to be something in vegas I just don't know what.
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Re: Masking Issue

Postby Nya-chan Production » Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:30 am

What preview are you using? Are you using Best? The lower qualities sometimes blend the preview, so it's best to mask in the Best mode :<
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Re: Masking Issue

Postby Mastamind » Fri Jun 04, 2010 5:33 pm

This happens to me a lot too. What I do is make a cut at such a frame, and for some reason at the start of the new clip there'll be two keyframes in the same spot (one of them retaining the properties of an older mask keyframe) instead of one. You can just delete the keyframe on the bottom and be done with it but it's still a pain, and if you want to add effects/zooms etc thereafter it'll have to be manually done frame-by frame. That's the only way around it I've found so far, any real solution has eluded me :(
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Re: Masking Issue

Postby Kosmit » Thu Jun 10, 2010 5:09 am

Mastamind wrote:This happens to me a lot too. What I do is make a cut at such a frame, and for some reason at the start of the new clip there'll be two keyframes in the same spot (one of them retaining the properties of an older mask keyframe) instead of one. You can just delete the keyframe on the bottom and be done with it but it's still a pain, and if you want to add effects/zooms etc thereafter it'll have to be manually done frame-by frame. That's the only way around it I've found so far, any real solution has eluded me :(

Yeah, I encountered the exact same problem and also couldn't find a better solution than yours. Still annoying as hell though, especially because it happens at random - at one point (on the same clip) it happened twice in just 8 frames and later it would go for the next 30 just fine... What version of Vegas are you using anyway?

Nya-chan Production wrote:What preview are you using? Are you using Best? The lower qualities sometimes blend the preview, so it's best to mask in the Best mode :<

I thought that might be the case so I rendered the clip and the problem was still there.
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Re: Masking Issue

Postby Mastamind » Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:08 pm

Kosmit wrote:What version of Vegas are you using anyway?

I'm currently using Vegas Pro 9, but the problem followed me since I used version 8. I've gotten used to it already but it's still tedious, especially given how much I mask. I'd really love to see someone solve this problem.
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Re: Masking Issue

Postby BurningLeaves » Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:07 am

Mastamind wrote:This happens to me a lot too. What I do is make a cut at such a frame, and for some reason at the start of the new clip there'll be two keyframes in the same spot (one of them retaining the properties of an older mask keyframe) instead of one. You can just delete the keyframe on the bottom and be done with it but it's still a pain, and if you want to add effects/zooms etc thereafter it'll have to be manually done frame-by frame. That's the only way around it I've found so far, any real solution has eluded me :(



Thanks for the tips, it was happening so often I just ended up saying screw it and did it frame by frame. I tried playing around with every setting I could find to try and see any reason why it was doing this. I don't know if this is a 'solution' or not but I noticed that the two videos that I had this issue with both had 29.97 fps. While other masking I have done in videos with a lower frame rate gave me no issues. Taking this in mind I made a copy of the clip that was giving me issues and encoded it at a lower rate and started a new project at the new matching frame rate and the problem no longer occurred. I had tried starting a new project with the original clip and the original 29.97fps but the problem persisted. So it seems to me at least that the problem is possibly vegas having an issue with extensive masking of 29.97fps footage? Perhaps it is trying to round it to 30 frames internally while you are editing and there for making room for random additional frames when there are none? It could just be a coincidence that both times I've had this issue was with that frame rate, and lowering it to an even number (I used 29.00fps.. basically making up my own just to test it out) seemed to fix it? I don't know if this is a full on solution and it wont really help you if you're in the middle of a project but I know the next time I plan on doing masking with a 29.97fps video I will be dropping down the frame rate of the clips prior to editing because that seems to work for some reason.
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Re: Masking Issue

Postby Nya-chan Production » Fri Jun 11, 2010 2:54 am

Wait, did you check the "original" footage (before encoding to lossless) for fps? This really sounds like you screwed up somewhere in the process ^^;;

Possible places to screw-up:

Encoding 23.976 source to 29.97 lossless avi
Using 23.976 lossless in 29.97 project (which doesn't seem to be the case)

I have been using 29.97 in Pro 8.0 and I had this problem like once - and it was because of bad fps settings.
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Re: Masking Issue

Postby BurningLeaves » Fri Jun 11, 2010 4:38 am

Nya-chan Production wrote:Wait, did you check the "original" footage (before encoding to lossless) for fps? This really sounds like you screwed up somewhere in the process ^^;;

Possible places to screw-up:

Encoding 23.976 source to 29.97 lossless avi
Using 23.976 lossless in 29.97 project (which doesn't seem to be the case)

I have been using 29.97 in Pro 8.0 and I had this problem like once - and it was because of bad fps settings.



If I'm screwing up the fps somehow I'd really like to know where (and I don't mean that in a bitchy way, I'd really like to know where so I could fix this problem and never have it again) the fps was the first thing I checked. Above I posted the SS of the project settings along with the fps settings of the lagarith avis I had created, both with frame rates of 29.970. The dvd box doesn't list the fps anywhere on it but I took one of the .vobs I had left on my computer (from right when I ripped it with absolutely nothing done to it) and dropped that into gspot where it listed the 29.970 fps as well.
Spoiler :
Image
I'd love to find some part in here where I screwed up along the way, but for whatever reason it's really not seeming like I did. (<- It's a rare occurrence I assure you) I went along and did the masking by splitting the clip up frame by frame and just did it that way, so though I couldn't figure a way to fix the problem I just worked around it. Though since it seems I'm not the only one whose had this issue I tried to keep looking into it, the only thing I found that worked was changing the fps to a lower (and incorrect) one. It only worked on the section I had been having an issue with as that was the only one I tried, and I do not know if the other people having these problems had them with the same 29.97 frame rate as I have, but it's a shot in the dark of something that could work if you're experiencing the same issues and can't see an error on your part.
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Re: Masking Issue

Postby Mastamind » Fri Jun 11, 2010 8:51 am

Interesting find, I've only edited with 29.97 so I hadn't noticed. The only problem with changing the framerate is that messing around with it could cause even more problems. I shall certainly look into it though :up:
However I really don't think mishaps with the framerate on the editor's part is the cause.. I've worked with R1 dvds of Baccano, Naruto, Clannad and Death Note, among others which all tell me both on the boxes and in DGIndex are 29.97, and I think I've encountered this error on all counts.
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Re: Masking Issue

Postby mirkosp » Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:44 pm

Dude, you gotta inverse telecine in avisynth those VOBs. The anime is 23.976 telecined to 29.97, you drop the extra frames and get the 23.976 source and edit like that. Otherwise, masking issue or not, the motion will be jerky. :nono:
EDIT: Also, this issue really isn't frame blending. Frame blending is a whole other thing, and unless you're using a very old or a PAL source, I can call you lucky to not ever have to deal with it (because in other cases you don't get blending unless you screw something up yourself).
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Re: Masking Issue

Postby nikolakis » Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:16 pm

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=98146

^ Just read what i am saying at the first post in the 3rd part...

English is not my main language, so i am sorry for any inconvenient to become perfectly clear...
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Re: Masking Issue

Postby Mastamind » Sat Jun 12, 2010 10:09 pm

mirkosp wrote:Dude, you gotta inverse telecine in avisynth those VOBs. The anime is 23.976 telecined to 29.97, you drop the extra frames and get the 23.976 source and edit like that. Otherwise, masking issue or not, the motion will be jerky. :nono:

I see, I wasn't aware of this. So I've been editing at wrong fps the whole time :x
But there'll still be people working at 29.97, right? Or is it a given that if you have 29.97 footage you'll have to IVTC it? I've always been a little unclear on the subject.
nikolakis wrote:^ Just read what i am saying at the first post in the 3rd part...

Sorry, I've read this before but it doesn't seem to work for me. Maybe I misunderstood? :(
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Re: Masking Issue

Postby Nya-chan Production » Sat Jun 12, 2010 10:49 pm

Mastamind wrote:
mirkosp wrote:Dude, you gotta inverse telecine in avisynth those VOBs. The anime is 23.976 telecined to 29.97, you drop the extra frames and get the 23.976 source and edit like that. Otherwise, masking issue or not, the motion will be jerky. :nono:

I see, I wasn't aware of this. So I've been editing at wrong fps the whole time :x
But there'll still be people working at 29.97, right? Or is it a given that if you have 29.97 footage you'll have to IVTC it? I've always been a little unclear on the subject.

Nope, not always - you check whether the footage has been telecined and if so, then inverse telecine it, some footage gets made in 29.97 and that is fine to use in 29.97.
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