Best Collaborative Video

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Re: Best Collaborative Video

Postby NS » Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:16 pm

I also agree with corran in every way. When I saw that changes were made to what collab and MEP meant I just facepalmed.
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Re: Best Collaborative Video

Postby GloryQuestor » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:43 am

Corran wrote:Why was it decided that collab meant "single song" and MEP was "multi-song"? I don't recall anyone calling for this change to be made in the past. The terms Multi Editor Project and Collaboration do not imply any characteristic other than that multiple people contributed to the video's production.

Now we have two person videos that are billed as collabs in the MEP category, and videos with as many as 46 editors that bill their video as a MEP in the collab category. How are two person collaborations supposed to compete with 46-editor videos...? If we assume that only half of the participants will vote for their own video, that still puts small collabs at a huge vote disadvantage.


First, the problem here is that the site cannot differentiate between the two types of videos. In the context of the site database, any video that had more than one editor would have been classified a "Multi-Editor Project". There had to be a way to differentiate the two terms for the two separate categories, and this was it.

Second, all videos are still subject to the viewer's eye, regardless of the size of the persons involved in the creation of the video. A video made by 2 might actually be better in viewers' eyes than a video made by 46 and get more votes if the video is popular to enough viewers to obtain them.

Lastly, if you feel that the numbers are a disadvantage based on friend or inter-studio voting, then you should know that this is how viewer voting is all over--anyone who has a group of friends sitting in the audience of a convention contest could have them vote for their video and tilt the voting in their favor. There's no way to control that. The best that can be done is to provide a counterpoint: the judges' votes (which in this case is the JCAs).
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Re: Best Collaborative Video

Postby Kitsuner » Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:14 am

How were MEPs and collaborations separated in last year's VCAs?
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Re: Best Collaborative Video

Postby mirkosp » Tue Jan 26, 2010 4:04 am

Kitsuner wrote:How were MEPs and collaborations separated in last year's VCAs?

X = inputbox("Any given number. It doesn't matter since people will dramafest about it being too low or too high anyway.")
If membercount > X Then
MEP
Elif membercount = 1 Then
LOLOLOLSOLOVIDLOLOLOL
Else
Collab
Endif

Something along those lines I think. This year collabs count as solo vids too, tho, since I see them participating in the other categories too. Last year they just had the collab category, iirc.
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Re: Best Collaborative Video

Postby NS » Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:33 am

But it's so simple, and I think pretty widely agreed on that collab means 2 editors. A collaboration between 2 people. Any more and it's MULTIPLE editors, or a Multiple editor project if you will...
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Re: Best Collaborative Video

Postby mirkosp » Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:53 pm

NS wrote:But it's so simple, and I think pretty widely agreed on that collab means 2 editors. A collaboration between 2 people. Any more and it's MULTIPLE editors, or a Multiple editor project if you will...

Spoil is, hands down, a collab and not a mep. That's 3 people and not 2. Same goes for Fragrance. And nothing stops 4 or more people to make together a video that could and should feel as if it was a single video edited by a single person.
Difference between collab and mep is more tied to the feeling of the whole: does it come out as a "single" video? Does it come out as a mix of what could have been different videos? And other aspects have to be taken into account too. Members count is certainly important too, but it shouldn't be the only differentiation point, nor should it be the audio. The issue here is that we haven't yet agreed on a solid definition of collab vs the generic definition of mep, so until we specifically decide what defines MEP and what defines collab, drama is bound to spur. If only the administration decides, it'd be drama, so for the time being definition is just used as a temp one for VCA purposes, so it likely comes down to having some sort of poll or whatever to define which points mark the difference between collab and mep and how. Right now we don't have the time for that though. :|
Also, just to point it out, 2 is multiple editors so by your definition meps and collabs should both fall in the same category, defying the purpose of differentiating them. MEP category was made to making voting more fair (clearly, if 50 people are in the same project, and assuming they are all going to vote for themselves, they would be put at a huge advantage), but when does that difference become so big? If it's just 2 members it's not that big of a deal, but how can you say that 8 is when 7 isn't? Which is why for any given X amount, people would have something to say and this year something different was tried.
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Re: Best Collaborative Video

Postby NS » Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:20 pm

Basically I'm operating on the mindset that an MEP can be a collab but a collab can't be an MEP (when you look at the numbers thing). You make good points, and I realize these things. But when I see The No Excuses MEP (was collaborated in the MEP section and released as such) under collab I'm just like "ugh". Even though I do realise that it was a collaborative effort to complete a single song.. it's just SO obviously an MEP that it's annoying.
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Re: Best Collaborative Video

Postby mirkosp » Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:42 pm

Well, as stated, depending on the point of view and the definition, no excuses could be considered a collab, and in fact was. Now, I personally am not sure about this case, as the original purpose was to try and make it look like a seamlessly flowing whole thing like it could have been edited by a single person despite the use of hard cuts. It obviously failed in many places, but you can still see how it could be considered a collab under that point of view too, and not only just song based.

OTOH, acid star presents a lot of very distinct tracks, and they could have been edited by a lot of different editors... it does give the "hell-like" mep feeling. Being just two users doing it together, it could of course being considered a collab, but here too, song issue aside, there are ways to look at it as a mep instead of a collab.

Like I already said in the other post, until we all agree on a strict definition that definitely sets apart meps and collabs, it will become hard to tell them apart with certainty (and even then there might be the grey area vids like acid star or no excuses could be), so for the time being all we can do is just accept the year's definition and see how it could be improved for the next VCAs.
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Re: Best Collaborative Video

Postby AGF-Antoine » Tue Jan 26, 2010 4:15 pm

Whats weird is that "Multi Editor code: h-bomb - M.E.C.H." made it into the collab finals although there clearly are specified tracks in it.

Would it still be able to move it from collab to MEP?

I just recently found out I could have reported it. In any case, sorry I am late.


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Re: Best Collaborative Video

Postby mirkosp » Tue Jan 26, 2010 4:39 pm

Think it's too late now, but based on the single song rule, it does count as collab. Although the clearly shared theme and editing style are other points that could make it count as a collab. It's pretty much the same situation as testosteros (which was also considered a collab).
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Re: Best Collaborative Video

Postby AGF-Antoine » Tue Jan 26, 2010 4:48 pm

mirkosp wrote:Think it's too late now, but based on the single song rule, it does count as collab. Although the clearly shared theme and editing style are other points that could make it count as a collab. It's pretty much the same situation as testosteros (which was also considered a collab).


Well my main point is the distinctive track part and the fact the AMV-name + credits obviously hint its intended as a MEP.

I was wondering, wouldn't it be an idea to let people select if its a MEP or a Collab when there are multiple editors in the list?
And maybe some clear rules about when its a MEP and when its a Collab.

In any case, I know that I can contact now + got more active on the forum, so next year I will at least be more helpful :P


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Re: Best Collaborative Video

Postby Corran » Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:22 pm

mirkosp wrote:
Kitsuner wrote:How were MEPs and collaborations separated in last year's VCAs?

If membercount > X Then
MEP
Elif membercount = 1 Then
LOLOLOLSOLOVIDLOLOLOL
Else
Collab
Endif


In previous years X = 5 so videos with 6 or more would have been in the MEP category while 2-5 would have been collab.

I'm not sure what the community's general definition of collab is anymore; however, my personal definition that has developed over my years here is that of a project that is edited in extremely close coordination with all of the editors (in person at the same computer if possible). In other words, each person is taking turns editing the video with ideas bouncing off each other continuously as the video progesses towards completion. An example would be videos edited together by VegettoEx and MeriC or silver_moon and Sierra Lorna. Videos made by these people were edited most likely with the same computer with the editors constantly giving each other feedback.

So to put it simply, the way I've always visualized it:
Collab = intimately constructed/all editors responsible for all sections of video
MEP = Impersonally constructed/each editor is only responsible for their section of the video.

Obviously, there is no way for the org to determine how closely the editors work together so this is why collab and mep were separated by member count in the past. Videos with only 2 or so editors are generally more intimately constructed than a massive project where each person is only concerned with their allocated portion of the video and their transition with neighboring segments.

The primary reason I made a point of bringing this up in the first place is that the definition that I use (and had assumed most of the org used until now) did not seem like it was along the lines of how videos were seperated this year. The potential for unfairness in terms of 46 editors voting for their own video while a 2 person video is at a deficit of 44 votes is a just side-issue that I figured could possibly happen with this change.

Anyways, whatever happens, happens. Neither method is perfect... just want to at least express my two cents on the matter.
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Re: Best Collaborative Video

Postby Bauzi » Wed Jan 27, 2010 2:35 pm

Corran wrote:So to put it simply, the way I've always visualized it:
Collab = intimately constructed/all editors responsible for all sections of video
MEP = Impersonally constructed/each editor is only responsible for their section of the video.

Isn't that too hard to determine for a simple viewer aka con-goer? Isn't that more of a JCA stuff?

I don't like this change. What really bugged me is that this change came out of nowhere. Nobody expected it. At least it feels like that.
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Re: Best Collaborative Video

Postby godix » Wed Jan 27, 2010 4:06 pm

mirkosp wrote:it depends on how the video is made - if it resembles a single video like it could have been made by one person, except with more people's efforts combined, it's a collab, if it's clearly a track-based project, then it's a mep.

This is my view on it basically. In a collab each editor works with the others and they all work on the whole video. There is no clear separation of 'this is my part, that is yours'. The video comes off as unified rather than a collection of parts. In a MEP, the song/songs are broken into parts and each editor does their own little segment. They usually don't even see, much less work on, any other part than their own. The final video comes off as very segmented; usually even a casual observer can tell offhand where the transition from one editor to the next is. The problem with this definition is there is no way to automate what goes where. Someone would have to sit down and watch every single video with more than one editor to determine if it's MEP or collab. Plus there are solo vids that come off with a MEP like segmented feel, especially if they're blipvert style vids like Doki's Hellø Fairy for example.

To make things simple, in the past we've gone by simple number of editors. ROS5 shows why that doesn't always work; there were five editors on it yet the video came off as a unified whole, a collab IMNSHO. I know I have seen vids edited by two people that had that clear segmentation that I think defines MEP, although none that were good enough to actually remember the vid name so I can't identify them.

This year GQ tried to fix those issues by going with # of songs. I think it doesn't produce better results though. No Excuses was pretty clearly segmented, although the segments were very short. Next year the MJ Mep will qualify as collab if the rules don't change and that is clearly segmented as well. Meanwhile it's easy to imagine a collab with multiple songs, if nothing else consider a unified collab video that uses a different song for credits and lists that in the profile.

However there's one other thing to consider, the history of the org. 2009 was the first year there was both Best Collaborative Video and Best Multi-Editor Project, which is where the concern for classification originates. Prior to this year, there was not been both a Best Collab and Best MEP category in the same year and the terms were used interchangeably. In 2008 it was called Best Collaborative Project (AMV Hell 4 won, with 66 editors and one song according to the vid info, which means under this years rules it would not be considered a MEP). In 2007 it was called Best Multi-Editor Project. Also, years ago MEPs used to compete in the regular categories. In 2005 that produced a result of 4 out of the 5 finalists for Best Dance were MEPs (scroll down for the finalists in dance). IIRC the VCA dramas that year, it was felt that 36 editors voting for themselves got some MEPs to the finals at the expense of solo edited vids. I think the reason the only single editor vid won was this backlash against MEPs beating out solo videos to the finals. As a result, the following year MEPs were not eligible for regular categories and the definition of MEP was based on # of editors.

So, in the end neither # of editors or # of songs produces accurate results in defining MEP vs Collab in my opinion. Having best collab and best MEP as seperate categories is pretty recent. Prior to that, the concerns weren't about what style a video was, but simply how many editors it had. Jasper tired expanding the categories some last year and GQ tried a different definition this year due to the old definition having some problems. Next year I suggest scraping recent changes and reverting back to the way things were. There should be a Best MEP category but there should not be a Best Collab category. Above X amount of editors and it can only compete for Best MEP. Under that amount of editors and it's treated like a regular video and competes in the regular categories.
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Re: Best Collaborative Video

Postby mirkosp » Wed Jan 27, 2010 4:16 pm

godix wrote:Meanwhile it's easy to imagine a collab with multiple songs, if nothing else consider a unified collab video that uses a different song for credits and lists that in the profile.

, , and are running for best collab despite listing more than one song, so clearly some sort of though went in there and it was not something automated.
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