Science and Faith

This forum is for members to discuss topics that do not relate to anime music videos.

Postby requiett » Sat Feb 17, 2007 8:48 pm

Faith should not be perceived as some kind of threat to logic. The outright denial of faith in favor of a wholly materialistic belief is just fucking depressing. The ultimate purpose of science seems to be eliminating all uncertainty. Imagine what sort of world that would be.
User avatar
requiett
 
Joined: 12 May 2003
Location: Alaska

Postby Shazzy » Sat Feb 17, 2007 8:53 pm

Kalium wrote:Creationism? The oppression of women? Intolerance of other religions and/or unbelievers?

Any portion which makes an objective reality claim, too. Any reality claim is subject to potential disproof, setting the stage for a messy fight which the religious will only lose.


1. Creationism

What are you saying here? Creationism is bad because _____? Because it conflicts with evolution? Because it conflicts with science? Is the assumption then that anything that conflicts with science is bad and should be discarded?

2. Oppression of women

Iffy. Humans tend to like power, and if that means oppressing those weaker than themselves, that's what they'll do. Women are raped, abused, and oppressed all the time by non-religious men. Some oppression can be traced to religious customs, certainly. Oppression can also be traced to pure atheists. Believing in a God is not a direct correlation to female oppression. Oppression of women has been a global standard since antiquity, in and out of religion.

3. Intolerance of other religions and/or unbelievers

Probably the strongest point. Religion is, unfortunately, rife with instances of cruel intolerance toward others. Unfortunately, intolerance is also prevalent anytime anyone believes in anything. You claim that religion "blinds" people and should be discarded. Is that not intolerance of those who don't believe your "scientific" worldview?

And for the last, define "objective reality claim"?
AMV guides for Mac users
DOWNLOAD THIS AMV
Quarter-life crisis: a sense that everyone is, somehow, doing better than you.
User avatar
Shazzy
 
Joined: 12 Jun 2004
Location: The Universe

Postby Kalium » Sat Feb 17, 2007 8:54 pm

requiett wrote:Faith should not be perceived as some kind of threat to logic. The outright denial of faith in favor of a wholly materialistic belief is just fucking depressing. The ultimate purpose of science seems to be eliminating all uncertainty. Imagine what sort of world that would be.

Faith is by definition illogical. Given how frequently it is used to lend false credence to faulty logic or held up as logic itself, it's no stretch to draw the implication that faith replaces logic for many.

I don't see what's so depressing about the lack of an invisible sky friend. I find it rather liberating to know that this is the only life I get - so I have to make it count. None of this 'what you do here will be judged for the next life' crap bogging me and everyone else in this world down.

I'm alive. What more do I need for hope? I'm alive, and that's enough.
User avatar
Kalium
Sir Bugsalot
 
Joined: 03 Oct 2003
Location: Plymouth, Michigan

Postby Otohiko » Sat Feb 17, 2007 8:55 pm

The ultimate point of modern science, yes, but science has moved on by this point.

Frankly, I don't want to make any particularly mean points here, but I'm pretty fine with (material) reality you know. I don't see why I need to turn somewhere else for answers. Probability works fine for everything I don't know and is ultimately fair.
Otohiko
 
Joined: 05 May 2003

Postby requiett » Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:01 pm

I won't argue that most of the people who have very heavy faith aren't fucktards. I just don't see the need to criticize the concept of faith itself.
User avatar
requiett
 
Joined: 12 May 2003
Location: Alaska

Postby Kalium » Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:01 pm

Shazzy wrote:1. Creationism

What are you saying here? Creationism is bad because _____? Because it conflicts with evolution? Because it conflicts with science? Is the assumption then that anything that conflicts with science is bad and should be discarded?

It's bad because it's a waste of time, money, other resources, is poisoning minds and ensuring slow economic heat-death, and most of all, because it's flat-out wrong. It's stupid on levels that defy words.

Shazzy wrote:2. Oppression of women

Iffy. Humans tend to like power, and if that means oppressing those weaker than themselves, that's what they'll do. Women are raped, abused, and oppressed all the time by non-religious men. Some oppression can be traced to religious customs, certainly. Oppression can also be traced to pure atheists. Believing in a God is not a direct correlation to female oppression. Oppression of women has been a global standard since antiquity, in and out of religion.

Read your Bible recently? It's not exactly nice to the fairer sex, to say the least. Nevermind all the slavery stuff. Don't even get me started on some of the dumber provisions, like the Sabbath Year and the Jubilee.

Shazzy wrote:3. Intolerance of other religions and/or unbelievers

Probably the strongest point. Religion is, unfortunately, rife with instances of cruel intolerance toward others. Unfortunately, intolerance is also prevalent anytime anyone believes in anything. You claim that religion "blinds" people and should be discarded. Is that not intolerance of those who don't believe your "scientific" worldview?

I'm not claiming that it shouldn't exist or that it should be purged by fire. I'm claiming that it's counterproductive. The distinction is fine but significant. I'm plenty willing to tolerate the existence, I just think it's foolhardy at best.

Shazzy wrote:And for the last, define "objective reality claim"?

"A verifiable claim about the objective nature of reality." Will that do? Stuff like "gravity exists" and "a magnetic field induces an electric field".
User avatar
Kalium
Sir Bugsalot
 
Joined: 03 Oct 2003
Location: Plymouth, Michigan

Postby Otohiko » Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:04 pm

Well define faith in that case. I mean it's obvious that social reality is, to some part, based on faith since a lot of it comes with second-hand evidence or worse. I don't disagree with the idea that some faith is required in anything; on the other hand, I do disagree with faith as at any point an overriding factor. If faith is something that requires you to take a leap of trust, fine. If this assumes shutting off logical/critical/pragmatic facility while doing it, NOT fine.
Otohiko
 
Joined: 05 May 2003

Postby requiett » Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:05 pm

You know what? Here. Here's a good social application for faith:

People who aren't as well educated as all of you seem to be don't get often very nice jobs. Their lives tend to be downright shitty. Yet, they end up doing all the labor to make all the nice fruits of science. They harvest crops, make shoes, and clothing and houses so others like you can concentrate on arguing how useless religion is. So if faith offers a little haven for the miserable masses to continue with their daily lives, why not let them have it?
User avatar
requiett
 
Joined: 12 May 2003
Location: Alaska

Postby Otohiko » Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:08 pm

Let them. But I'll look down on that as, in Russian terms, "mrakobesiye" ('raving-in-the-dark').

It's an escape. It's unneccesary. It's the source of many social problems which could easily be solved were everyone reasonable.
Otohiko
 
Joined: 05 May 2003

Postby requiett » Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:09 pm

But everyone isn't reasonable, and it's unreasonable to expect them to be so.
User avatar
requiett
 
Joined: 12 May 2003
Location: Alaska

Postby Kalium » Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:12 pm

Because it allows them the illusion that they can't do better. Because I do not find subjugating the foolish masses a good use of anything, for any reason. Because I think hope is a positive emotion, and should be used towards positive ends.

Social control is not a positive end. They do not have to be miserable, and I see no reason to spoon-feed them that illusion.

On top of that, the effects several hundred years down the road are undesirable.
User avatar
Kalium
Sir Bugsalot
 
Joined: 03 Oct 2003
Location: Plymouth, Michigan

Postby requiett » Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:14 pm

Kalium wrote:I see no reason to spoon-feed them that illusion.

But you don't know everything. I don't understand how you're living in any less of an illusion. You have no grounds to argue this kind of topic from.
User avatar
requiett
 
Joined: 12 May 2003
Location: Alaska

Postby Otohiko » Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:16 pm

By the way, I don't see why 'littleness' has to be associated with a need for faith. I've done my share of public toilet cleaning, I've had my share of being beaten the crap out of, I've had my share of being poor but I don't see why faith is required to deal with it and stay sane.
Otohiko
 
Joined: 05 May 2003

Postby Kalium » Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:16 pm

requiett wrote:
Kalium wrote:I see no reason to spoon-feed them that illusion.

But you don't know everything. I don't understand how you're living in any less of an illusion. You have no grounds to argue this kind of topic from.

Yes, actually, I do. I know that it's possible for them to improve their means, because it's been done. There is no reason to and every reason not to try to make them content with their measly lot.
User avatar
Kalium
Sir Bugsalot
 
Joined: 03 Oct 2003
Location: Plymouth, Michigan

Postby Shazzy » Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:17 pm

Kalium wrote:
Read your Bible recently? It's not exactly nice to the fairer sex, to say the least. Nevermind all the slavery stuff. Don't even get me started on some of the dumber provisions, like the Sabbath Year and the Jubilee.


Sure, a lot of religious customs regarding women are not "nice," especially in the post-women's-lib era. Neither is it "nice" that a girl a floor below me was raped twice (in a span of 2 weeks) by a complete stranger (who broke into her apartment window) who couldn't care less about religion. It's more probable that oppression towards women (read: people weaker in some aspect) is a nearly omnipresent carnal human attribute. Laying the blame for female oppression squarely on religion isn't accurate.

Kalium wrote:I'm not claiming that it shouldn't exist or that it should be purged by fire. I'm claiming that it's counterproductive. The distinction is fine but significant. I'm plenty willing to tolerate the existence, I just think it's foolhardy at best.


Fair enough. Many religious people feel the same way about atheists, though. They're not trying to nuke the Gentiles, but they think an atheistic viewpoint is less than true.
AMV guides for Mac users
DOWNLOAD THIS AMV
Quarter-life crisis: a sense that everyone is, somehow, doing better than you.
User avatar
Shazzy
 
Joined: 12 Jun 2004
Location: The Universe

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest