Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Critique

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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby Athena » Mon May 27, 2013 12:57 am

Sephiroth wrote:If i don't speak up about something, that is engaging in it?


I wouldn't say engaging it, I would say allowing it. And by allowing it, we give it tacit approval. We may not actually approve of it, but our silence is enabling. It means that when someone makes expresses a view in a group setting, the individual looks to how people react. If they receive no warnings, they believe that their views are allowed, and even desired or affirmed, even if it is absolutely not true.

Really, so by that logic if i don't speak about Pedophilia or speak out against it i'm a Pedophiles despite the topic never coming up. Your logic is astoundingly absurd.


What? No. This isn't what I said at all. It's a false comparison.

Because the majority of editors are men = AMVs must be sexist.


I specifically say that a male majority has nothing to do with the space being a male dominated one. It is possible, in fact it is common, for a space to be dominated by a minority. It's about the frequency of attitudes and behaviors, and indeed, the blind spots we have about that frequency, which leads to such a situation.

AMVs are not sexist. AMV communities can have individuals who make misogynistic comments and structures with misogynistic tendencies.

The majority of Psychologists are female, by your logic Psychology hates men. Correlation does not equal causation.


Please reread the essay. This is a major mischaracterisation of what I have written.

That is not a problem, a real problem would be if there was deliberate cordinated effort to keep women out, which there isn't.


I never said women are not allowed to enter into these spaces. Overt exclusion is not the issue. Conditional inclusion is.

No one knows that much about the person who made them, you could even pretend to be another gender if you wanted. Does the audience know the gender of anyone who made said random videos at a con? They may know some of the people if they had a panel but do you think that anyone would look at a video say its good and then when they hear a women made it suddenly hate it.


You are articulating a very simplistic view of what misogyny is, how it can be both expressed and perceived, and how it is built into our social structures. This really isn't helpful.

So yes more men then women make amvs.


Please reread the essay. Majority is not the issue here.

There is nothing no one i have ever seen in 15+ years of editing untold cons and meeting other editors that ever had anyone say or express a feeling of women shouldn't be making AMVs and by inferring that you are insulting and demonizing everyone ive ever met in this hoby.


You and are from the same generation, Sephiroth. Again, this is an articulation which is considerably oversimplified. I am not inferring what you have claimed I am inferring. I am absolutely certain there are a few isolated incidents of male AMV editors saying that women shouldn't be making AMVs, but that is not what this is about. At all. And if you think it is, I suggest you please reread the essay.

You are a horrible human being and if you continue to infer that the AMV community hates women i don't want anything to do with you.


Woah. Timeout. This is way across the line. I have not said AMV communities (there is no longer one, monolithic AMV community, not by far) "hate women." I find them to have subtle misogynistic tendencies which are systemic and sometimes flare up into specific incidents which reflect an underlying issue. I also feel these spaces can be anti-woman without any intentional or overarching desire to be anti-woman.

Calling me a horrible person for daring to speak up about an issue I have had brought to my attention repeatedly and that I have personally experienced is not appropriate. It's a silencing tactic. And it simply lends credence to my views.

Not because your a feminist or a women, but because you have just insulted everyone else in a unfair and patronizing manor by infering that they have furthered sexist behaviors and attitudes, or actively engaged in them.


Patronising? Perhaps. I admit that maybe I erred by writing in a style better suited for an academic journal or for the feminist spaces in which I usually write. Maybe this was too theoretical and too academic. That's a fair criticism and something I have already acknowledged. It was certainly not my intent. It was my intent to write a well-crafted essay/article on an issue in AMV communities and posted to the appropriate section of the forums for such an essay/article.

I'm not inferring anything. I am explicitly stating that misogyny allowed is misogyny approved within this theoretical framework, but even if the framework is theoretical, the consequences are not. The consequences are very real. So I am asking us to be a bit better about enforcing a set of what I believe to be shared values of the hobby which you (incorrectly) believe I am attacking.

I appreciate your engagement in the discourse, but please try to remain civil.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby mirkosp » Mon May 27, 2013 8:28 am

*pops up*

DA RULEZ!

Thou shalt be courteous at all times including visiting conventions, forum posts, opinions given, and opinions received. Respect others' opinions though you may disagree with them. If you wouldn't say it to someone's face, don't say it over the internet.


To everybody, do keep that in mind when posting, aye?

Feel free to continue.

*vanishes*
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby JaddziaDax » Mon May 27, 2013 11:05 am

I guess I haven't personally run into many of the type of the situations that you seem to be describing, hence my pun of a comment earlier. The closest I've come was a vague opinion that included the phrase "fangirl video" as though they are somehow less than other videos, but, the term "fanboy video" could be used in the same way. And maybe once when I posted an old photo of myself and got a couple of creepy compliments, then had to explain that it was taken years prior and I didn't look like that anymore.

I have found that when people get angsty with me here it's usually because of something stupid I said or did, but they have never used my gender to attack me for it.

But then again, I've also been mistaken for male several times, not only here, but other places too. Though, I'm sure "Old Man" jokes don't help. ;) I don't mind the idea of remaining a gender neutral persona on the forums though.

Anonymity of the internet after all.

And I have to admit I've made my share of "no girls on the internet" jokes (including ones about growing specific body parts the moment I get online - usually just to gross out the guys who aren't into that). I've definitely never run into the "tits or gtfo" type of mentality here. I've never even been asked to prove I was female when it came up.

Indeed, Godix was Godix and a lot of people knew that he was pretty civil outside of his forum persona so I don't include encounters with him as specifically demeaning towards women because he was demeaning towards EVERYONE. But, just because Godix got away with calling Kio the names he did, I never got the impression that it was okay for me to do it. If others have then that IS a problem.

I do think I get where Kio is coming from, though. While some of this behavior was never directed towards me, I have seen some it happen to the other females here. Especially when it comes to the "creepy praise" stuff.

I do think that it took some women on this site a long time (before I joined/became involved) before they were widely accepted.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby Qyot27 » Mon May 27, 2013 11:29 am

I'm trying to figure out how to phrase this, so I apologize in advance if it misses the point, just reiterates previous points, or seems to go off-topic.

One thing I've wondered - and it applies as equally to women's issues as it does to other matters of equality - is how effective a message or a call for change can be if the image is perceived (rightly or wrongly) as polarizing. If the situation is seen as too highly specialized, it can too easily be disregarded. I encounter this all too often due to political discussions. And to a certain extent, in pop culture. In some ways, the message is commoditized, and this is a way of trying to discredit it as a fad, or for its political opponents to caricature it into a straw position they can kick down. Pop culture is really bad at this, since it'll latch on intensely for a while, and then subsequently abates. In reference to the topic at hand, one example might be the attention given to 'girl power' in the 90s - which was important in the sense of making the issue visible to a younger age group, but it still suffered from ludicrous amounts of gender cliché because it became something to be sold, some sort of fashion, and it was still couched in very specific views of what femininity is.

I guess what I'm getting at, is how should the topic be approached in a way that it can actually be internalized without being too in danger of being dismissed? What can the practical application be so that it doesn't devolve into an us vs. them situation?
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby Athena » Mon May 27, 2013 12:05 pm

First I want to thank Dax for her awesome addition. That was really helpful. And she's hit on some serious issues with what I called, "conditional inclusion." That it has taken some women on the site a long time to become widely accepted. I'm glad she also has seen some stuff, even if it wasn't directed to her specifically.

Qyot27, I'm not following. Do you mean to say that because feminism has a "bad rap" so to speak in pop culture that presenting it here creates obstacles to achieving the end goal, since some people, maybe a lot of people, will immediately put up defenses against something they think they know something about, yet really do not?

I could write screeds on the misappropriation of phrases like "girl power" and "empowering women" and the like.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby Qyot27 » Mon May 27, 2013 4:01 pm

Kionon wrote:Qyot27, I'm not following. Do you mean to say that because feminism has a "bad rap" so to speak in pop culture that presenting it here creates obstacles to achieving the end goal, since some people, maybe a lot of people, will immediately put up defenses against something they think they know something about, yet really do not?

I guess to a degree, as far as people getting defensive is concerned.

I think what I was really going for was that it's way too easy for a privileged group to say 'not my problem' and ignore it or get defensive, and then I was [largely rhetorically] asking what the optimal ways to avoid that are. To make them realize that, it is their problem. How to defuse the defensiveness so the point will actually sink in.

The commodity and pop culture points were about how important issues can get marginalized more than they were actually about feminism having any kind of image problem.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby AMVGuide » Mon May 27, 2013 4:23 pm

I think what Qyot is getting at is: The initial post is very one-sided; which jeopardizes the possibility of being taken seriously.

Have you ever had a teacher that asks a question that effectively tells you the answer right in the question-- or just the answer they want you to say? Yeah. That's what this is like. Now... doing that is generally okay for demonstrative purposes... but the nature of this topic is very opinionative. So, this approach probably isn't going to get very far; where stuff like this is inevitable:

Qyot27 wrote:...and ignore it or get defensive, then I was [largely rhetorically] asking what the optimal ways to avoid that are. To make them realize that, it is their problem. How to defuse the defensiveness so the point will actually sink in.

To encourage involvement --without defensive backlash-- it's best to present a Balanced Viewpoint. Which, unfortunately, Kionon can't really do here since the initial article is highly Polarized: Taken to one extreme end of the spectrum. However, Introducing Neutral, or Balanced, Open-ended Questions should be able to regain that:


Within the AMV Community (or elsewhere):

1. Do you ascribe yourself to any of the following?
    Masculin / Feminin
    Male / Female
    Man / Woman
    Gentlemen // Lady
    Guy / Gal
    Dude / Chick
    Boy / Girl
    He / She

    [Other]
2. Do you actively represent yourself using a particular Gender?
3. Have you ever been mistaken for the opposite Gender?
4. Have you ever encountered unbalanced treatment based on Gender?
5. Do you know of any Feminist Campaigns?
6. What does it mean to be Gender-Neutral? Should we try to be Gender-Neutral all the time?
7. Do you think Misogyny is an issue? What can we do to avoid it?
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby BasharOfTheAges » Mon May 27, 2013 4:38 pm

I'm sorry, but I can't see this all as anything more than crying wolf and playing an -ism card. Persecution complex much?
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby Athena » Mon May 27, 2013 5:51 pm

Qyot27 wrote:I think what I was really going for was that it's way too easy for a privileged group to say 'not my problem' and ignore it or get defensive, and then I was [largely rhetorically] asking what the optimal ways to avoid that are. To make them realize that, it is their problem. How to defuse the defensiveness so the point will actually sink in.


Sounds to me like you're just describing a normal reaction to any discussion of privilege. Privilege has blinders which come with it. It makes it hard to see, let alone understand, an issue which does not impact you. And it's hard, really hard. There was probably a way to go about this which might have been seen as less deharmonising, but unfortunately, it's always difficult to discuss privilege without at least some of that.

So I don't have an answer for your question. I wanted this to be a critique from a feminist perspective. I wanted to use that particular toolset. I encourage others to reach into a different bag of tools for articulating this issue. But this is what it is.

AMVGuide wrote:I think what Qyot is getting at is: The initial post is very one-sided; which jeopardizes the possibility of being taken seriously.


Of course it is. The initial post was an essay through a specific lens. I say that in the title. No one can say they didn't get what they thought they were getting.

Have you ever had a teacher that asks a question that effectively tells you the answer right in the question-- or just the answer they want you to say? Yeah. That's what this is like. Now... doing that is generally okay for demonstrative purposes... but the nature of this topic is very opinionative. So, this approach probably isn't going to get very far; where stuff like this is inevitable:


This is an essay with a clear approach, methodology, terminology, and conclusion. I'm not required to give you a different answer than what I have articulated. This isn't a poll where I ask, "Has anyone suffered misogyny in the hobby" or "Are AMV communities capable of misogynistic tendencies?" The essay answers these questions in the affirmative. Of course it gives an answer. It's an article. This would be at place in any journal, or textbook, or classroom. And General AMV is where such articles are supposed to reside.

To encourage involvement --without defensive backlash-- it's best to present a Balanced Viewpoint. Which, unfortunately, Kionon can't really do here since the initial article is highly Polarized: Taken to one extreme end of the spectrum. However, Introducing Neutral, or Balanced, Open-ended Questions should be able to regain that:


You can't have the entire thread, AMVGuide. You can have your posts within it, which I encourage. It was not my intent nor my desire to present an overview of all the different positions which people might possess. It was my intent to present a view. If you wish to dispute it, to toss rebuttals or objections my way, I absolutely encourage that, but please don't try to rewrite what I wrote because you wouldn't have written it. That's really, really problematic. It's an erasure of my voice.

There is no "balanced viewpoint" to be regained (of course I quibble with your terminology here, as it suggests I was unfair, and I don't believe I was unfair). There was no question about my academic bias (not to be confused with the popular idea of bias). It was written in the title.

This said, I will answer your questions.

Within the AMV Community (or elsewhere):

1. Do you ascribe yourself to any of the following?
[list]Masculin / Feminin
Male / Female
Man / Woman
Gentlemen // Lady
Guy / Gal
Dude / Chick
Boy / Girl
He / She


I'll accept female, although I'll rarely use it for myself. I'd probably say female-identified to avoid stepping on certain toes.
Woman is the main way I identify.
Gal is fine, and guy has become increasingly neutral.
Girl is a weird one, depends on context, and how it is being dichotomised. I'm an adult, not a child, but I still sometimes use it.
My pronoun is she.


2. Do you actively represent yourself using a particular Gender?


Yes.

3. Have you ever been mistaken for the opposite Gender?


Oh... only my entire life. :wink:

4. Have you ever encountered unbalanced treatment based on Gender?


Repeatedly.

5. Do you know of any Feminist Campaigns?


I'm not sure what you mean by this. I know a lot of campaigns in which feminists participate and which represent values in feminism and cover an issue feminism is concerned with, but those activities are not the whole of feminism. There are a great many ways to "do" feminism. The original essay was one such way.

6. What does it mean to be Gender-Neutral? Should we try to be Gender-Neutral all the time?


This requires its own essay. I don't feel I can give you a one line answer to this.

7. Do you think Misogyny is an issue? What can we do to avoid it?


Asked and answered, in my case, by the original essay.

BasharOfTheAges wrote:I'm sorry, but I can't see this all as anything more than crying wolf and playing an -ism card. Persecution complex much?


You've leveled a very serious charge, but you haven't actually given any substantive argument why it is so. Can you do that, civilly, without getting into personal attacks? If so, your criticism may be valid. As it stands alone, however, I will ignore this comment.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby inthesto » Mon May 27, 2013 6:46 pm

Otohiko wrote:
NME wrote:tl;dr

applying this theory to everything under the sun exposes it to be complete balderdash

good work


yes, because calling someone's elaborated views with unsubstantiated tl; dr is a solid invalidation strategy.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby Qyot27 » Mon May 27, 2013 10:03 pm

Just to be clear, I understand that the essay is written from a particular perspective and uses the terminology and tools of that approach. Being 'one-sided' is appropriate when discussing an issue from the viewpoint of a particular method or background, which is exactly the point here. I mean, I wouldn't expect an existentialist to argue using rationalist methods in a philosophical discourse. It's what makes those points of view and the answers they provide distinct.

Much of my fixation on the ways to apply what we learn from the essay and ensuing discussion without the danger of it being marginalized is as much about my own frustrations encountering those (in real life, or other places on the Internet) that are unaware of their privileges and are bitter and angry about others raising perfectly valid concerns, just because it means they don't get to discriminate anymore. It's toxic to be around, and it's one of those couple of hot-button issues that make me so agitated that I can't make a calm or reasoned response to it - my mind just fractures and any attempt to do so would probably come out as incoherent fragments of an argument. I only know that I can seek to conduct myself in better ways, and unfortunately that's the only solace I can get.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby Sephiroth » Mon May 27, 2013 10:44 pm

The whole listing of privilege is nothing more then an attack. Instead of addressing actual points the claim is the person doesn't understand due to their privilege. IE your privileged so that's why you are disagreeing with this but if you weren't then you'd be for it. To put it another way i'm not black but i have seen enough things that have shown me actual racism, along with having friends who have actual received it to know that yes it does exist.

Its an ad homininem in particular the 4th one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD50OTR3arY

'Your Privileged and this privilege you aren't aware of so that why your saying this' Even if it is true that the person is privileged, you are not addressing how and why those points are factually wrong. Your the one making a claim so the burden of Proof is on you. Unless there is valid data that proves that Amvs have an active negative bias against female editors A lack of female editors is not evidence for that. We might as well claim that AMVs are western propaganda after all they ware created by the west, with western privilege, and we don't have nearly as many non western AMV editors now do we.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby Kitsuner » Mon May 27, 2013 11:51 pm

I'd certainly like to see more Western AMVs, but Trigun isn't as popular as it used to be.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby seasons » Tue May 28, 2013 1:55 am

Sephiroth wrote:Unless there is valid data that proves that Amvs have an active negative bias against female editors A lack of female editors is not evidence for that.


There's a strong chance that you may have misunderstood the premise of the whole thread or at least misread the OP.

No one was ever arguing that AMVs are "biased," whatever that would mean. Also, Kionon reiterates several times that this is not about # of male editors vs. # of female editors.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby Sephiroth » Tue May 28, 2013 4:29 am

seasons wrote:
Sephiroth wrote:Unless there is valid data that proves that Amvs have an active negative bias against female editors A lack of female editors is not evidence for that.


There's a strong chance that you may have misunderstood the premise of the whole thread or at least misread the OP.

No one was ever arguing that AMVs are "biased," whatever that would mean. Also, Kionon reiterates several times that this is not about # of male editors vs. # of female editors.



I'm not just responding to Kionon. The claim of privilege is stating that there exists a preferential bias for the male gender. A common fact to state in argument of that would be the number of female editors vs the number of males. The thread also lists as one of the major topics being Misogyny which is an active hatred of women. Hate is a negative Bias against someone.

And no matter what i may or may not have stated no one has submitted much in the way of proof rather opinion i include myself in that. Believe whatever you want but make claims and you better be able to prove them with evidence. There has as far as i know been no major study done on amv creators. None, so there is nothing to work from to make any claims. Statisticly there are bound to be some people who make amvs that do hate women, also those that hate men, are furrys, and who knows what else we might find if we looked at the lifestyles of our creators.

I will make the argument that likley there are more males winning more contests and having more of the popular videos simply because there are more men. Even within that i don't know whos won what contests. Even with that depending on how you looked at that data you could claim various things. If we analyzed the cons wins, found that more men won you could only really say that women don't win as many contests as men. Now if you took the relative population numbers and once again i'm going with a presumption that there are more male editors then female. You graphed out the percent of men assuming a higher number of them then women and possibly given a less number of women you determine if your a women that you have a higher chance to win then your being a man based on scaling their populations. If you at that point claim anything your being silly. Why because there can be any number of factors that made those cases happen. Likewise as i pointed out depending on how you sort your data from those examples you could make claim that AMVs either favor men or women.

I've seen plenty of women win awards at cons. Rider has won more awards then i have in a shorter amount of time. I could possibly cite her as an example that women do better at amvs then men. Even with all this theres a major problem how do we define success as an amv creator? With all that hypothetical I have defined it as number of awards won at cons. And you could do this even though other areas could very well be used that aren't so easily measured. Did the person enjoy making their video. Do we count personal satisfaction as the means of success?

Statements such as "To challenge misogyny where and when we see it." indirectly states that it would be found in this topic. The presumption it communicates is that there is Misogyny and that it will be challenged.

Want out of your comfort zone? I'm fine with that, I demand proof of every single thing any of you claim. Especially if your demanding others to change based on those claims. I'm not claiming anything, i really don't know for sure how the community works if its more christian or jewish or white supremicist or whatever. I'm not saying anyone should do anything different. Whatever we think about the AMV community is for the most part made up by us. Nobody knows anything.
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