Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Critique

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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby JaddziaDax » Sat Jun 01, 2013 11:09 pm

AMVGuide wrote:Now, in our current reality, I think most people would agree objectification of women is far more prevalent; thus where we should focus our efforts most ;)


When I see the reactions of Twilight fans, One Direction (Bieber, Jonas, pick your young male popstar and insert here) fans, and screaming fangirls in other places *ahem* I beg to differ. It seems to me that it's becoming fairly even these days, AND we are giving the message that it's okay for women to act this way but not men.

I also don't think you can talk about one without mentioning the other.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby AMVGuide » Sat Jun 01, 2013 11:34 pm

Yeah, I think you're right: Objectification is becoming more balanced.

And you know, that brings me to the idea of Overcompensation.
If we focus too much on the girls, (or ladies, gals, women, or whatever term you'd like to focus on), we'll forget about the boys (or gentlemen, guys, men etc); where things become unbalanced again; not to miss those that don't ascribe to one side. So it's good you bring this up :up:

Kionon! make a Misandry thread! pronto!!!
naww j/k, but still that brings me back to a question I brought up earlier:
What does it mean to be Gender-Neutral? Should we try to be Gender-Neutral all the time?
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby Athena » Sat Jun 01, 2013 11:41 pm

Well, this may seem counter-intuitive at first, but feminist theory asserts that unhelpful frameworks are still because of patriarchy. If we don't transform the current system entirely, then we may indeed end up simply shifting the discrimination. I'll note, however, that this hasn't happened yet. We do have folks who believe this and articulate this, even if it isn't true. Kitsuner's article on the "distress of the privileged" touched on this.

And do you really want me to try to answer those questions, because I'm warning you, if I do, it's going to be a wall of text.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby AMVGuide » Sat Jun 01, 2013 11:53 pm

hmm... my question about gender-neutrality is mostly meant to be thought-provoking, and rhetorical-- as that could become an entire thesis in itself.
But if I can get a man to imagine --for 15 minutes-- what it would be like to live their life as a woman; and vice versa; and everything in between...
...then I think that can make all the difference in the world. It could very well be the start of the transformation of the system you speak of.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby ngsilver » Sun Jun 02, 2013 12:27 am

I have refrained from posting up until now as I honestly don't think I have anything to add to the current discussion or the main question that has been asked multiple times in this thread. It has been asked to come forward and share instances where you have seen Misogyny crop up within the AMV community. TBH, I cannot think of any such instances. But, perhaps it's best to come out and actually say such. Now, I can see this as opening myself up to opposition on my statement, especially considering the reputation I have as being a hentai editor (and a host for such videos) as well as being a man. It would be safe to say that is also a reason for me keeping quiet, as TBH, I prefer to keep myself out of arguments dealing with things like politics and social issues. But, I just can't keep quiet.

So yes, I personally can not think of any such instances that I have seen or been a part of. Now, obviously, it has to have happened at least as far as I can tell. The reasoning I have for thinking this is something had to have push Kio into starting this discussion and there is an obvious quote from another community member in the first post that does lead to that assumption. However, I have no clue what thread that post came from. Despite being a part of this community, I don't really pay attention to most threads, and beyond what few threads and topics I pay attention to and the few interactions I have with people on #amv and in IM or Skype and the very limited in person interactions, I pretty much keep to myself and generally prefer to be on the outside looking in. I'm like this most of the time in a vast majority the social circles I'm part of. So to me, my own visibility into the community and interactions are quite limited, and as such I just haven't seen it.

Could I have overlooked something? Sure. Could I have forgotten something? Very likely, after all I do have a very crappy memory. So, take from it what you will.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby Athena » Sun Jun 02, 2013 12:56 am

Thanks, Nate.

It is helpful when people say they haven't seen these things, because if we assume that I'm not lying (and I'm not), and I have seen a number of instances over the years, received complaints, have PMs I have been specifically asked not to share, then we have a blind spot large enough to sail an aircraft carrier through. And I sure would like to know why that is. Just going by the forums alone (which are searchable by everyone), I could pull out hundreds of examples. Then there are numerous examples in the IRC logs. Then you could expand out to other AMV communities. Then you could look at YouTube comments (which I admit, is just generally problematic for many reasons).

I'm really not making this up. I'm really, really not. It's not just one or two incidents that led to the original notes for the essay, and nor was it one incident that finally pushed me to posting it. I just cannot wrap my head around how all of these examples don't point to a systemic problem. However, even if they don't, then don't we still have issues with people just generally being shitty to each other and using clearly sexist language to accomplish it?

It's extremely frustrating to walk this line between discretion and confidentiality and refusing to grant a lack of evidence supporting my assertions.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby JaddziaDax » Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:00 am

Kionon wrote:However, even if they don't, then don't we still have issues with people just generally being shitty to each other and using clearly sexist language to accomplish it?


Not to pick one bit and only comment on that, but I really think that in general for MOST people on this site, this is the behavior I see.

If it's not just being shitty then it could be (like say in the case of creepy compliments) just a huge lack of social skills. Someone trying to be nice, who only comes off as weird or creepy instead.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby ngsilver » Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:26 am

Continuing on with the thought of this idea of generally just being shitty, could this all in turn just be akin to the general 'rules' of the internet or perhaps the inherent truth behind the separation of self when on the internet? What I'm trying to get at, is that as far as I know it's generally accepted that for most people their online persona is entirely different then their in-person persona. It is true, text is emotionless and you can hide behind the ambiguity of the physical disconnect that is the internet. Being shitty to someone in real life often has social consequences, however doing it online well... you can pretty much feel safe in assuming that what you say online will have no impact on your real life. And as for the rules of the internet thing, don't we all know that there are no 'girls' on the internet? I could see the sexist comments being an extension of the worst of 4chan.

I don't know of any specific instances in real life interactions between editors at cons and what not that are examples of Misogyny. In fact, generally, I don't know of many instances of general shittyness from the brief real-life interactions I've had and observed at conventions. Overall, to me I see the amv community as a generally open place. But I have more memories of the real life times then those on the internet, and especially youtube. I mean, I've witnessed many arguments and perceived fights on the forums regarding AWA's contests, but when we all show up at the con it's like it never happened. Is this just everyone exhibiting proper social graces because it's 'real life' and the whole being shitty thing online is just related to the physical divide?

This is what I find the most curious.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby AMVGuide » Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:51 pm

@ngsilver: That's a very interesting point to bring up. I encourage you to start a new topic called something like: "Online Persona's" and basically just ask "Do you consider yourself to have an online persona? If so, how do you represent yourself online compared to real life and at conventions?"
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby Athena » Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:40 pm

AMVGuide wrote:But if I can get a man to imagine --for 15 minutes-- what it would be like to live their life as a woman; and vice versa; and everything in between...


I didn't skip this observation, but I wasn't sure how to respond to it. That said, I suppose, I might be one of the most qualified to answer this. I think we're all aware of why I might have a just wee bit of experience with this. :wink:

This is a lot more difficult than it sounds, and honestly, fifteen minutes of thought experiments doesn't do it justice. There are significant differences which have to be experienced to be understood. In fact, there are some differences which I feel need to be experienced simply to be believed. And I'm only talking about social differences. I'm not even talking about biological ones, although I very much have insight into some of those as well. Here's a list of my own personal observations in comparison to my lived experiences at various points:

    1) My personal space is smaller as a woman.
    2) Discussion of my body, including by strangers, is more common as a woman.
    3) My ideas are taken less seriously as a woman than as a man.
    4) I talk less and listen more as a woman. I still talk a lot, of course, but I'm quite capable of acting as a human emotional sink when necessary. This is, in some cases, actually expected of me.
    5) Why do I keep apologising for everything?
    6) I'm considerably more situationally aware of spaces in which I might be in danger;
    7) And I often scan an area and identify escape routes even before consciously realising it.
    8) Key. Between. The. Fingers.
    9) Catcalling.
    10) More hoops to jump through and greater cost for contraception, even if that contraception is being used for other reasons unrelated to sex.
    11) Wage gap.
    12) Comments about my biology which may not even apply to me (Two weeks ago, I had a headache and cramping and considered calling in sick, coworker says, "You should have just called and said you were on your period." I don't have a uterus, and no, it wasn't that funny).

...I could probably go on, but that's a lot, and many of these are regular occurrences. I haven't been catcalled in Japan, but I've been hit on several times in super creepy ways in areas without easy escape routes (like the frikken monorail). Guys, please don't do this. You will automatically get shunted into my "potential threat" inbox. And these are just social issues (although the contraception one meets up with the biological ones). I could do another list on biology, or even restrict it to my own biology, and that would still be a list with a number of entries.

Some of the more general ones absolutely apply as much to personal settings (like AMV communities, hint hint) as they do to professional settings.

AMVGuide wrote:@ngsilver: That's a very interesting point to bring up. I encourage you to start a new topic called something like: "Online Persona's" and basically just ask "Do you consider yourself to have an online persona? If so, how do you represent yourself online compared to real life and at conventions?"


Not when it comes to AMVs, no. I do not act any differently online than I do in person. I try very hard not to say anything online that I would not be willing to say to someone's face. I've had to spend a fair amount of time cleaning up lots of personal information on the forums because my lack of persona means I have been careless, and I am now concerned that some of that personal information is a danger to me.

Kionon: What you see (read?) is what you get. Period.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby JaddziaDax » Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:20 pm

5) Why do I keep apologising for everything?


I don't think this is a strictly a female quality - my husband does this all the time and I've picked it up thanks to him..
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby Athena » Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:26 pm

JaddziaDax wrote:
5) Why do I keep apologising for everything?


I don't think this is a strictly a female quality - my husband does this all the time and I've picked it up thanks to him..


Actually, I almost didn't include that one. It's also very Japanese. But in western culture it seems like many women feel more compelled to apologise as a way of reducing tension.

Any quibbles with the others?
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby JaddziaDax » Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:30 pm

Well considering I don't know what it's like to be a man, I can't say for sure about the others... Some women have issues with those some don't.

I mentioned that one because my husband has a habit of sayin "I'm sorry" even when he's not the one at fault....

EX:
"I stubbed my toe on the desk"
"I'm sorry"
"not your fault"
"sympathetic sorry"
"ok"
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby Athena » Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:39 pm

JaddziaDax wrote:Well considering I don't know what it's like to be a man, I can't say for sure about the others... Some women have issues with those some don't.

Well, I don't really either. I can only draw on many of the same societal messages that you do. I do however have the additional experiences of other people applying male privilege to me. That "man" is a social construction I've never owned, sometimes I'm left guessing myself. It was never one I was particularly good about "play acting" either. But I can't control others' perceptions or actions, so... This means I am very much aware of, say, the space issues, and I was able to observe it in others. A couple of these are "what's seen can never be unseen" sorts of things.

I mentioned that one because my husband has a habit of sayin "I'm sorry" even when he's not the one at fault....

EX:
"I stubbed my toe on the desk"
"I'm sorry"
"not your fault"
"ok"


This ia different meaning of sorry, the give away is this: "sympathetic sorry" It indicates sympathy or empathy rather than taking blame. I am talking about how I often I accept that an occurrence is my fault.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Postby Ultimatetransfan » Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:03 pm

If gender has nothing to do with the quality of the product, why draw attention to it at all?
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