Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Critique

[Kionon]

Sephiroth,

I am on my way to a doctor's appointment in central Tokyo. I am therefore on my iPhone and unable to address what you have written. I will make one explicit statement I will expand on in great detail later: you have misunderstood large sections of the essay. Nothing you have brought forward has anything to do with what I've stated. You have completely mischaracterised the essay so you can argue against what you think I mean.

You are way out in left field.

[Sephiroth]

Sephiroth,

I am on my way to a doctor's appointment in central Tokyo. I am therefore on my iPhone and unable to address what you have written. I will make one explicit statement I will expand on in great detail later: you have misunderstood large sections of the essay. Nothing you have brought forward has anything to do with what I've stated. You have completely mischaracterised the essay so you can argue against what you think I mean.

You are way out in left field.

As i stated i'm not just responding to you.

[Sephiroth]

You know what i'm done. Claim whatever you want.

[Kionon]

The problem is, you're negating concepts no one has brought up. No one here seems to think that a majority of male editors is the issue. No one brought up contest wins. No one has brought up overt hatred of women, believed or expressed. Feminist theory asserts that misogyny is more than this overt hatred or overt inclusion, it is system of cultural behaviors and attitudes which serve to marginalise women's voices. This marginalisation can, and does, exist in degrees. Often times the most insidious attitudes are the most subtle because we subconsciously breathe them in and out without recognising they are even there.

[Kionon]

Overt exclusion, I mean. Sorry for the mistake.

[Sephiroth]

The problem is, you're negating concepts no one has brought up. No one here seems to think that a majority of male editors is the issue. No one brought up contest wins. No one has brought up overt hatred of women, believed or expressed. Feminist theory asserts that misogyny is more than this overt hatred or overt inclusion, it is system of cultural behaviors and attitudes which serve to marginalise women's voices. This marginalisation can, and does, exist in degrees. Often times the most insidious attitudes are the most subtle because we subconsciously breathe them in and out without recognising they are even there.

Your language communicates otherwise
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/misogyny
Only definition given :a hatred of women.

Whatever definitions Feminism may have given you, you are using words which have very pre-established meanings. Now words do change, the vinacular however from words like Mysogyny has a very direct and precise meaning. Your use of it is not communicating what your claiming it does.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny
Misogyny (pron.: /mɪˈsɒdʒɪni/) is the hatred or dislike of women or girls.

And as i stated i'm not just responding to you. The example of there are less female editors then male is an example of a piece of data you could make an argument about preferential treatment as an effect of it. It doesn't apply to your argument, guess what i'm not responding to you on that example. At this point i'm no longer upset with you but rather the idiots who decided that Oh yeah this word here should mean something completely different when we use it. Misogyny means to most people ive met, myself included is 'a hatred or dislike of women'. Not everyone here's a feminist scholar. Much like if i'm a scientist i may not write down the specific terminology i use if i'm sure other people wouldn't understand it. This is why ive gone through great pains to explain things like fallacies and give examples of them. Basicly you think your communicating one thing and you are communicating another to me.

I'll state very plainly i believe in equal rights for everyone. If you can do something, things like race, sex, skin color, or sexual preferences should have no bearing on your ability to pursue that.

[AMVGuide]

It seems to me --as is usually the case-- that everyone is hung up on Linguistic Logic.
Despite Misogyny not being the word I would use here, I think this is more or less the point Kionon is trying to make:

...those that are unaware of their privileges...

I challenge everyone to disregard everything that's been said for 15 minutes and just imagine what their life would be like as a different gender.

[seasons]

Replying to a few recent comments, none of which were directed towards me. I don't want to derail the thread outside of its original intent so carry on if you see fit.

Spoiler :

Want out of your comfort zone? I'm fine with that, I demand proof of every single thing any of you claim. Especially if your demanding others to change based on those claims.

What, specifically, do you want "proof" of? And what kind of "proof" would you like to see?

More importantly, what are the "claims" that you think are being made? Or which specifically are you concerned with?

The claim of privilege is stating that there exists a preferential bias for the male gender.

For the purposes of a discussion like this, I think that "privilege" is understood to be a set of advantages that one group has over another. As a white male in the USA, I enjoy lots of it! Granted, I try to be conscious of its role in how it affects me in one situation or another, and I try not to (pre)judge others through the lens that it's imposed on my worldview, but it certainly does help me out (and I need all the help I can get, trust me). I would say that "privilege" is not the same as discrimination, or at least not in the traditional sense that most people are most familiar with. Rather, it's a more subtle and widespread phenomenon. You may encounter it daily and not even notice it. Yep, that can happen. But it still shapes our society and our collective behaviors (you, me, men and women). Trust me, it exists. But here's the good news: its existence does not mean that all males are bad people! That conclusion would be a huge mischaracterization of feminist theory as well as the ideas presented in this thread. Plus I like to think that we're all here to be friends and to peacefully work out our differences. The OP presents no ill will towards anyone in this thread and if you think any of it does, it might be helpful to point out exactly where because I think we need to come to an understanding about that before we accomplish anything worthwhile here.

When it comes to the idea of "privilege," I'd say that it's not about dismissing someone's work simply because of their gender because of a bias that's been socialized into someone's set of values. Sure, that happens (and is a despicable habit of some people, I'm sure we can agree on that). But it sets up our expectations for others, leads us to make assumptions about what they're capable of, what experiences they might have had, or whether they're a "good fit" for the team or the job or whatever group is in question. This happens subconsciously, becomes part of how we see the world, how we view others, and how we accept others' behaviors. And when we assert privilege (consciously or unconsciously), we remind others of the power structure that is in place in both our subculture as well as society as a whole, which serves to put people "in their place" and reinforce the social hierarchy that exists in our world. Are you interested in specific examples of this?

If you can do something, things like race, sex, skin color, or sexual preferences should have no bearing on your ability to pursue that.

No one here is stating that women's rights to create AMVs are being infringed upon. Or that they are being excluded from contests or judged unfairly in them. This isn't really about AMVs in themselves at all, but (if I understand the OP correctly) the culture that has grown up around them. This happens on the board here, happens across anime fandom (both online and at conventions), is prevalent across all of "geek culture" (from comic fandom to video games to all things tech-related, and more...) and is the social norm in practically every sphere of the Internet. You are free to deny that if you wish but it would help us all if you had some reasons for doing so. And if you want "evidence," I can get you some but you've got to agree to stick around, read and consider it, and not simply write it off as "a few bad apples" or anything like that.

From the exact same Wikipedia entry that you just quoted (as long as we're going to use that site as an authority on the matter):

In feminist theory, misogyny is a negative attitude towards women as a group, and so need not fully determine a misogynist's attitude towards each individual woman. The fact that someone holds misogynist views may not prevent him or her from having positive relationships with some women. Conversely, simply having negative relationships with some women does not necessarily mean someone holds misogynistic views. The term, like most negative descriptions of attitudes, is applied to a wide variety of behaviors and attitudes.

I find that perfectly reasonable and very difficult to characterize as unfair. Would you agree?

[trythil]

http://misogynope.ninjawedding.org

Not a perfect solution by any standard, but it does a lot more than arguing about the meaning of words.

[Sephiroth]

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Want out of your comfort zone? I'm fine with that, I demand proof of every single thing any of you claim. Especially if your demanding others to change based on those claims.

What, specifically, do you want "proof" of? And what kind of "proof" would you like to see?

More importantly, what are the "claims" that you think are being made? Or which specifically are you concerned with?

Lets see, people making claims that anyone is Privileged, even with your example below i can easily say that women have a set of invisible privileges they aren't aware of or at least not listing. So even in the event of 'Privilege' that need to be looked at in comparison to 'privilege' that is enjoyed by females. The way 'Privilaged' was used was very much orintated towards the males. Just because you feel privileged doesn't mean you are, even if you are Privilaged that doesn't mean you are privileged in a particular area. That AMVs are dominated by men, and i will want to know how that conclusion was reached.

The claim of privilege is stating that there exists a preferential bias for the male gender.

For the purposes of a discussion like this, I think that "privilege" is understood to be a set of advantages that one group has over another. As a white male in the USA, I enjoy lots of it! Granted, I try to be conscious of its role in how it affects me in one situation or another, and I try not to (pre)judge others through the lens that it's imposed on my worldview, but it certainly does help me out (and I need all the help I can get, trust me). I would say that "privilege" is not the same as discrimination, or at least not in the traditional sense that most people are most familiar with. Rather, it's a more subtle and widespread phenomenon. You may encounter it daily and not even notice it. Yep, that can happen. But it still shapes our society and our collective behaviors (you, me, men and women). Trust me, it exists. But here's the good news: its existence does not mean that all males are bad people! That conclusion would be a huge mischaracterization of feminist theory as well as the ideas presented in this thread. Plus I like to think that we're all here to be friends and to peacefully work out our differences. The OP presents no ill will towards anyone in this thread and if you think any of it does, it might be helpful to point out exactly where because I think we need to come to an understanding about that before we accomplish anything worthwhile here.

When it comes to the idea of "privilege," I'd say that it's not about dismissing someone's work simply because of their gender because of a bias that's been socialized into someone's set of values. Sure, that happens (and is a despicable habit of some people, I'm sure we can agree on that). But it sets up our expectations for others, leads us to make assumptions about what they're capable of, what experiences they might have had, or whether they're a "good fit" for the team or the job or whatever group is in question. This happens subconsciously, becomes part of how we see the world, how we view others, and how we accept others' behaviors. And when we assert privilege (consciously or unconsciously), we remind others of the power structure that is in place in both our subculture as well as society as a whole, which serves to put people "in their place" and reinforce the social hierarchy that exists in our world. Are you interested in specific examples of this?

Ok but at that point arent they just gendered expectation and things associated with gender roles rather then privileges. Even within the confines of that what you just listed also can apply to the female gender will they have the same ones no. Just because someone has one set of Privilages doesn't mean other people don't have others. I have to go to work i'll continue this later

If you can do something, things like race, sex, skin color, or sexual preferences should have no bearing on your ability to pursue that.

No one here is stating that women's rights to create AMVs are being infringed upon. Or that they are being excluded from contests or judged unfairly in them. This isn't really about AMVs in themselves at all, but (if I understand the OP correctly) the culture that has grown up around them. This happens on the board here, happens across anime fandom (both online and at conventions), is prevalent across all of "geek culture" (from comic fandom to video games to all things tech-related, and more...) and is the social norm in practically every sphere of the Internet. You are free to deny that if you wish but it would help us all if you had some reasons for doing so. And if you want "evidence," I can get you some but you've got to agree to stick around, read and consider it, and not simply write it off as "a few bad apples" or anything like that.

That was in a new paragraph and i was stating very planely what my views on gender rights were.

From the exact same Wikipedia entry that you just quoted (as long as we're going to use that site as an authority on the matter):

In feminist theory, misogyny is a negative attitude towards women as a group, and so need not fully determine a misogynist's attitude towards each individual woman. The fact that someone holds misogynist views may not prevent him or her from having positive relationships with some women. Conversely, simply having negative relationships with some women does not necessarily mean someone holds misogynistic views. The term, like most negative descriptions of attitudes, is applied to a wide variety of behaviors and attitudes.

I find that perfectly reasonable and very difficult to characterize as unfair. Would you agree?

One, even in that its the 6th section of the article. I was pointing out this is how its primarily used which is also where i came from on it.

Also from wiki also looked at the cited source
"In 2012, primarily in response to events occurring in the Australian Parliament, the Macquarie Dictionary (which documents Australian English and New Zealand English) expanded the definition to include not only hatred of women but also "entrenched prejudices against women".
So yes it does mean that in the macquarie dictionary a good 9 odd months ago when it was changed(In october 2012). As before if your going with a variant especially one that has only recently been added into it in country's i don't live in. It might help to point out because as i stated i was taking Mysogyny as hatred of women because that's what it meant and still means in the US.