Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Critique

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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Post by Kionon » Sat May 25, 2013 8:01 pm

aesling wrote:You honestly don't see anything wrong with calling certain users misogynistic, then specifically saying you're going to target them differently than you will other rule-breakers? Anyway, I apologize for not being more specific, I'm just honestly not sure what I'm allowed to share on that front.
I don't have any problem calling out a misogynistic comment when I see it. And I don't have a problem with calling someone who repeatedly engages in misogynistic behavior misogynistic. You might want to send me a PM. I think I know to whom you're referring, and if so, that is definitely a discussion which is not appropriate for this forum, but it is a very important discussion to have, and I will absolutely have it with you. I also could be completely wrong, and I might have no idea to whom you're referring. So in that case, it really is a good idea to let me know.
I really do agree with AMVGuide in that you have to call people out on stuff as it happens, but it probably works better if we do it on a more personal level. If something offends you, talk to that person as another human being. I think most people will respond to being reasoned with, rather than talked down to.
I'm not calling out anyone specifically because this is a culture-wide. I'm calling us all out. And I am not condescending to anyone, far from it. I do think we have an issue accepting that intersectionality is real and just because something is not a problem for some of us that it isn't a problem for any of us.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Post by Kionon » Sat May 25, 2013 8:07 pm

post-it wrote:. Gender Neutral T__T .. ain't happening! Girls are seen as the one who gives birth and raises the kids. Governments see girls as money-spending-freeloaders. Smarts are waisted on teaching them because all they understand is Spend Spend Spend!!!!
. The actual truth is "not allowed" because "we haven't seen the differance"!!!!

. Until TV and Radio display girls as useful instead of Play Pretties, its a man world.
. Gays and Lesbiens are even lower than Black Males ( be glad your not one of them )
...There's so much to address here, I don't even know where to start. You've identified a lot of issues with the worth of women as defined by reproduction value, the idea of women as materialist consumers, educational attitudes, media portrayals of women, and even attempted (I think?) to address intersectionality of misogyny and homophobia.

But that last comment, perhaps due to the language issue, is super problematic. First because I'm no fan of playing Oppression Olympics, we all have reasons we are discriminated against, and we have traits that allow us to avoid certain kinds of discrimination (in feminist and critical race theories, we call those traits "privileges"), intersectionality recognises that that oppression of, say a black straight male and a white lesbian are both different and therefore comparisons between them directly are questionable.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with the parenthetical statement. How do you know I'm not a lesbian?
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Post by Kionon » Sat May 25, 2013 8:23 pm

AMVGuide wrote:The way I see it, there will always be exaggerated polarization of gender based on biological sex. It's simply more convenient to assign gender roles based on something arbitrary...
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Gender is a social construction, although it is a real one, with real consequences. I'm not going to go all Judith Butler on you about gender performativity and the inability to overcome, but rather transform the current gender paradigm, but I will leave you this link of JB explaining her views to cats. Sex as a dimorphic reality is also a social construction, given the consequences of being XXY, XXXXY, XX with high levels of testosterone during fetal development, genetic chimerism, and androgen receptivity problems. It's a mess.
In Communication Theory, this is called Overshoot Interference, where someone recieves a signal that was not intended for them; and misinterpretation occurs. I agree that people need to avoid doing things like that-- and not just from a feminist standpoint.


Good to know! *saves in brain* Overshoot Interference, I like that!
But again, all we can really do is calmly address these issues as they crop up. Preferrably keeping a timestamped list of such observations as they happen (well-documented evidence is crucial to building any sort of case towards real change). That way, we can notice patterns --with solid proof-- and actually work on solutions to be prepared for such situations as they arise.
Agreed, but understanding the theory behind the issues is also really important to solving the issues, or at least reducing it, in my view.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Post by AMVGuide » Sat May 25, 2013 11:00 pm

AMVGuide wrote:The way I see it, there will always be exaggerated polarization of gender based on biological sex. It's simply more convenient to assign gender roles based on something arbitrary...
Kionon wrote:Gender is a social construction, although it is a real one, with real consequences. I'm not going to go all Judith Butler on you about gender performativity and the inability to overcome, but rather transform the current gender paradigm, but I will leave you this link of JB explaining her views to cats. Sex as a dimorphic reality is also a social construction, given the consequences of being XXY, XXXXY, XX with high levels of testosterone during fetal development, genetic chimerism, and androgen receptivity problems. It's a mess.

Well, I meant that we generally assign gender based on sex-- if sex can be determined via the traditional test. And the majority of the time doctors can say "It's a boy" or "It's a girl." Of course, it's not always that easy, hence why I said it's an arbitrary relationship. And yet, we as people make assignments like that intentionally out of convenience; save for those that wish to fight for their unique identity the rest of their lives. It just seems more reasonable to adopt oneself into one of those 'boxes' as you put it; especially when the label is only as meaningful as the social construction that created it-- often serving some kind of function in communication: I want people to refer to me as "he," for the very fact that I know they cannot be talking about the girl sitting next to me. And that's about the extent of function most people want to get out of Gender, outside of sexual discourse. Because, to be hung up on terminology does not allow one to move past it. Much the same, all communication is about --hearing the message not the words-- no matter what gender said it.

Yet, I certainly agree that problems arise when extra meanings are attached to such terms. Like the term Man. I will probably never call myself a Man despite being male, and over the age of 21. Too much baggage with the word. I prefer Guy or Gentlemen; and I can enjoy the perks of being in that category. Likewise, you may find females don't always like being called Woman either; but that doesn't stop them from enjoying the perks of being a Lady. If I'm not mistaken, that's the whole message behind Lady Gaga. And she even takes it one step further by preferring just Gaga instead of Lady... trying to show people that we should all call each other by Name instead --given or chosen-- in order to enjoy the perks of being Yourself.

So... yeah... username-gender-ambiguity is always going to be an issue on the Org. But in a lot of ways it can be used as a positive thing: I can become the entity known as AMVGuide, and people aren't going to judge me based on assumed gender connotations.
Kionon wrote:understanding the theory behind the issues is also really important to solving the issues, or at least reducing it, in my view.
Oh, for sure. You need both: Theory to understand it; and Application to make real change. I like to think of Theory as a way to step outside the box; and Application as a way to step inside the box. But when the time comes to step back inside the box... you surree better be right about everything you said about that damn box! :nose:

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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Post by Otohiko » Sat May 25, 2013 11:17 pm

aesling wrote:
I really do agree with AMVGuide in that you have to call people out on stuff as it happens, but it probably works better if we do it on a more personal level. If something offends you, talk to that person as another human being. I think most people will respond to being reasoned with, rather than talked down to.
I also agree with that, and believe me, as a mod, I personally try. Sometimes people don't respond though. Calling people out in public can be really important. If something is not ok, not confronting it then and there is a bad thing.

And yes, absolutely, one issue shouldn't be singled out over others, but it's important to be able to talk about it, and be able to take it from substantial perspectives. Kio might be a bit too academic here, but there's some really great points raised that would be good to discuss.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Post by JaddziaDax » Sun May 26, 2013 12:17 am

This thread makes me feel like an "old man".

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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Post by Kionon » Sun May 26, 2013 4:01 am

You are an Old Man, Old Man.

Kurzon references, Kurzon references everywhere!

...I'll get back on topic when I get home. Currently on my iPhone.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Post by aesling » Sun May 26, 2013 5:29 am

Otohiko wrote:I also agree with that, and believe me, as a mod, I personally try. Sometimes people don't respond though. Calling people out in public can be really important. If something is not ok, not confronting it then and there is a bad thing.
Yes, because I'm totally saying we shouldn't confront bad behavior. :roll: C'mon, you know me better than that, calling people out on their stupid shit is something I do quite a bit.

I agree that we can all work on our sensitivity, awareness, and maturity, but I already said that we need to talk to people on a case-by-case basis instead of making a thread that's likely to make the people who don't already agree with you feel super defensive. That's not really going to change minds. Unfortunately I have to leave for work, so I can't really go into this more.
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Post by Kionon » Sun May 26, 2013 7:58 am

We're starting to get pretty far afield of the original essay. And I'd like to bring us back around to the original topic, but there's a lot in here that I think is important to discuss in a wider context. I'm going to try to remain brief though, and then pull us back around to my intentions with the original essay, which I feel has been badly taken out of context.
AMVGuide wrote:Well, I meant that we generally assign gender based on sex-- if sex can be determined via the traditional test. And the majority of the time doctors can say "It's a boy" or "It's a girl."
They do say, but the question is should they. "Boy" and "girl" are social constructs. They cannot be medically pronounced from on high.
...save for those that wish to fight for their unique identity the rest of their lives.
Wishing has nothing to do with it. It's fight or live in perpetual discomfort. For some it is fight or die.
It just seems more reasonable to adopt oneself into one of those 'boxes' as you put it; especially when the label is only as meaningful as the social construction that created it
It seems reasonable to you, sure, but for some it is not reasonable at all. This is a key component of the issue being discussed earlier: what is not a problem for you may still be a problem for others.
I want people to refer to me as "he," for the very fact that I know they cannot be talking about the girl sitting next to me.
I'm not sure where you're going with this. Are you saying that if you didn't have a girl sitting next to you, the pronoun "he" would be meaningless to you, and you would be fine with, "she?" Does your personal pronoun only become important in distinguishing from female-identified persons? What about in the presence of other male-identified persons?
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Because, to be hung up on terminology does not allow one to move past it.
Defining terms is incredibly important, otherwise the discourse does not progress. You cannot effectively dismantle what you do not understand, and you cannot replace it with something better without understanding why the original structure was deficient in the first place.
aesling wrote:I agree that we can all work on our sensitivity, awareness, and maturity, but I already said that we need to talk to people on a case-by-case basis instead of making a thread that's likely to make the people who don't already agree with you feel super defensive. That's not really going to change minds. Unfortunately I have to leave for work, so I can't really go into this more.
I think there's some confusion over how this essay was conceptualised and why it was posted. What I'm gathering is that you believe it to have been the result of some recent specific argument or event or moderating decision in which I was involved. But that's a guess, a pretty big one on my part, because I really don't have any idea to what you're referring. I thought I may have had an idea, but now I'm really sure I don't. I promise you, I really have no idea who these "people who don't already agree with [me]" are or why this essay would have them "feel super defensive." I am not thinking of any one single person or any specific group of people.

In any case, if I am reading between the lines correctly, and that is what you are implying here, allow me to say in no uncertain terms that the genesis for this essay long predates any specific, recent events or moderating decisions. I've been meaning to write this essay for months, at least. It has been an issue I have witnessed and experienced for years. Although there have been a few recent incidents which sparked a return to my notes on this subject, the essay itself has been in bits and pieces for a while. It is absolutely not a response to any one specific event, or even a few recent events. It is a feminist critique of many, many events over my entire time as a member of the Org.

This is an essay, not a revenge thread. You might think of it as an academic article or blog post, one which has comments enabled. It was always my understanding that General AMV was the place for essays/articles that dealt with AMVs or the AMV community. The one thing that sets this article apart versus previous articles by other members, or even by myself, which have been posted here is that it is a feminist critique, obeys certain intertextual rules of feminist discourse (which is why "feminist critique" is so clearly stated in the title), and is for me, something like the latest in a series of articles dealing with issues within feminism. While I have shared no other essays/articles here, I ask that those editors who are readers of my work (like Otohiko and CorpseGoddess) not to betray the compartmentalisation of my pseudonyms, while also backing me up when I say that this type of essay is pretty par the course for the type of work I do. But why should looking at experiences within AMV spaces from a feminist lens be disallowed? What rules have I broken?

In large part the essay was a call "to talk to people on a case-by-case basis." If you're already doing that, that's awesome! I'm genuinely relieved to hear that, but this essay wasn't meant for you (or at least, not you individually), it was meant for the entire community. All of us. And identifying that misogynistic behavior is an issue, at least for some of us, and makes AMV spaces unsafe, at least for some of us, seems to me to be no different than other issues we've identified as problematic in these spaces. Have we not discussed issues of image? Of reputation? Of elitism? Have we not tried to clarify how we treat the new and the uninitiated? Have we not given feedback on how we would like the format of the forums and the database to better reflect changes in technology and attitudes of different internet "generations?" Are we not concerned with ethical issues of fairness, and the rules and structure of AMV contests? Why is a feminist break down of misogynistic tendencies any different? Why is it unwelcome? It is a valid approach.

I do not understand how addressing issues "case-by-case" necessitates not discussing these issues in non-specific aggregate. Why can we not do both?
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Re: Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Crit

Post by aesling » Sun May 26, 2013 11:35 am

Ok, I apologize for the incoherence/incompleteness of my post earlier this morning. I wanted to post more, but I literally had to run out the door, and I mostly felt the need to respond to Otohiko in a more immediate fashion. First, let me clear the air here. I did not honestly intend for this discourse to become about your moderation decisions. That's not what I was trying to get out in this morning's post, and what was intended to be a minor comment on a pattern I have observed became a bigger deal than it really should have because clarification was dragged out over several posts. So, to clarify what I did actually mean:

I get that talking about issues in a general sense is important. However, you're asking the community to make very specific changes. To change, people have to know what they're doing wrong and when. Impiety's first post in this thread is a perfect example of what I'm getting at. Impiety's friends may make some insensitive jokes in private, but Impiety believes them to be generally good people who are usually respectful of women in practice. I bet Impiety's friends don't think of themselves as misogynists, and it seems like this is the type of person you're trying to reach with your post.

You're not going to convince assholes to not be assholes, but there are people out there who are more reasonable who may not realize some of the things they say aren't ok. However, I feel you make some pretty big blanket assumptions about general attitudes, an the meme photos you use are rather...aggressive...in attacking an issue that I know has been big on various parts of the internet (fake nerd girls), but I have not really seen much of here. This may come off as you implying that groups of people here think certain things when they do not, which would make anyone feel defensive. You're not calling out anyone specifically, but you've made clear you're calling out absolutely EVERYONE with this assumed behavior. You don't want to be labeled, but you are in turn applying the misogyny label incredibly broadly.

I don't think it's fair to apply that term so broadly, because I really don't agree we come from a culture where it's considered the social norm (or genuinely socially acceptable) to hate women. We certainly do have a past that we are still working to free ourselves from, and we should all means keep an open dialogue about that. But it's not part of the established tradition to cut girl's genitals in this country, nor am I likely to get shot for encouraging women to go to school. Women have pretty strong roles in our society that continue to evolve, and while I think we've made a lot less progress on front of gender norms, this is why it's important to actually talk to people about it when it comes up, so we can change attitudes, and changing people is unfortunately a slow process. I also don't want to come off like I'm condoning certain behavior, because I certainly am not, but a public space is never going to be a completely safe one. There are always going to be people with differing attitudes, and you will never know if you can reason with them unless you try. If a space is to be safe for you, it either has to be private, or you have to censor it completely (which is the only reason I brought your attitudes towards moderation in the first place). In either case you are only building an echo chamber, and overall nothing actually changes.
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