US Credit Score: AAA to AA+

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US Credit Score: AAA to AA+

Postby lloyd9988 » Fri Aug 05, 2011 9:54 pm

Link: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000..._largeHeadline

Question: Will you consider this change to be good or bad??

Opinion: Basically... we shot ourselves in the foot with this one. :/ We had two plans that would have worked and, instead, we went with a last minute plan that shot down the Dow Jone 512 Points. Ouch... Honestly, I found it amusing how I ended up reading an Arizona Republic Newspaper yesterday to find a heading title that says "Crisis Adverted". Sorry, but I could help but chuckle when I found that our credit went from triple AAA to AA+.

Its one of those things that if you read the fine print instead of just believing what everyone else says about what's happening around the world, you would have seen it coming too. With a weak ability for the white house to make such obvious decisions, it was inevitable that our credit score was going to go down. So, if you'd like to leave the white house a comment about how they screwed things up with their indecisiveness, Leave them a comment:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact

Also, I do believe this to be a good thing because maybe our people will start caring more about what is going on in our country.
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Re: US Credit Score: AAA to AA+

Postby drewaconclusion » Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:11 pm

lloyd9988 wrote:Link: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000..._largeHeadline

Question: Will you consider this change to be good or bad??

Opinion: Basically... we shot ourselves in the foot with this one. :/ We had two plans that would have worked and, instead, we went with a last minute plan that shot down the Dow Jone 512 Points. Ouch... Honestly, I found it amusing how I ended up reading an Arizona Republic Newspaper yesterday to find a heading title that says "Crisis Adverted". Sorry, but I could help but chuckle when I found that our credit went from triple AAA to AA+.

Its one of those things that if you read the fine print instead of just believing what everyone else says about what's happening around the world, you would have seen it coming too. With a weak ability for the white house to make such obvious decisions, it was inevitable that our credit score was going to go down. So, if you'd like to leave the white house a comment about how they screwed things up with their indecisiveness, Leave them a comment:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact

Also, I do believe this to be a good thing because maybe our people will start caring more about what is going on in our country.
I can't say as I didn't see the downgrade coming.
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Re: US Credit Score: AAA to AA+

Postby lloyd9988 » Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:26 pm

drewaconclusion wrote:I can't say as I didn't see the downgrade coming.


Well, you don't have to say whether you saw it coming, you can just say how you feel about having the U.S. economy being dropped down a credit score.

i.e. It wasn't too obvious to see it coming. If you pretty active about these sort of things then you can kinda see it. Basically, having the Dow Jones drop 512 points in one day and having a bill that would raise the debt ceiling $2.1 trillion dollars and was expected to only fix $950 billion of our $14 trillion kinda made it seem like this bill was placed as a last-minute resort. Either way, our credit is down and we need to start getting more involved if we want to raise our credit back up.

Also, I know my post sounds a bit conceited, I just copied and pasted from my safe haven website just to let you guys know what happened while you were busy and away.
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Re: US Credit Score: AAA to AA+

Postby Davis 51 » Mon Aug 08, 2011 9:16 am

Basically, Speaker Boner (that's how I say it) said he got 98% of what he wanted out of the 'deal'. I blame him.
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Re: US Credit Score: AAA to AA+

Postby Glitzer » Mon Aug 08, 2011 11:29 am

The United States is the biggest debtor nation in the history of the world. Our credit has been going down for years, this isn't anything new. All of our growth has been based in debt for the last forty years.

Davis 51 wrote:Basically, Speaker Boner (that's how I say it) said he got 98% of what he wanted out of the 'deal'. I blame him.


You can't blame this on a single individual. Our decline is a direct result of the career politician, on all sides. The world could be on fire and they would still be bickering about nothing. All their rhetoric is political posturing to maintain and extend their power.

lloyd9988 wrote:Also, I do believe this to be a good thing because maybe our people will start caring more about what is going on in our country.


I don't think that for a second. Those who have been asleep to all the problems so far will continue to sleep.

lloyd9988 wrote:Question: Will you consider this change to be good or bad??


The world is consuming more than it can produce. Commodities ftw, everything else is screwed.
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Re: US Credit Score: AAA to AA+

Postby BasharOfTheAges » Mon Aug 08, 2011 11:52 am

The downgrade has pretty much nothing to do with the amount of debt we have, it's about how congress handled the situation and the fact that the "deal" they struck was a piece of crap.
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Re: US Credit Score: AAA to AA+

Postby HalOfBorg » Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:39 pm

And of course the obvious solution is to not only keep on spending, but spend more! These cuts are pathetic, spread out over way too long a period and probably will not even happen.

I want an across the board 10% budget cut, with no department allowed to cut services, pay or personnel. And anyone who doesn't make it work will get to enjoy joining the private sector ASAP. Wanna keep your cushy job? Then cut back on redecorating your damn building/lobby/office/bathroom. Figure out where the money is leaking and plug it. Quite spending 18 months DISCUSSING how to do something better, because the solution you come up with will be out of date by the time you implement it. Something is broken - FIX IT. Now - because next week it will cost more to fix and will STILL need fixing!

The goal is to get government running in a small 'for profit' mode. Not a lot, but NO WASTING MONEY, TIME or EFFORT.
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Re: US Credit Score: AAA to AA+

Postby Davis 51 » Tue Aug 09, 2011 12:34 pm

You can't blame this on a single individual. Our decline is a direct result of the career politician, on all sides


He was the chief negotiator for a single side of the entire debate that walked away from talks consistently and bragged about getting 98% of what he wanted in the end by holding the full faith and credit of the US Government Hostage.

I'm pretty sure I can blame him. The "pox on both houses" thing to me, is just an excuse for avoiding critical thinking.
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Re: US Credit Score: AAA to AA+

Postby Glitzer » Tue Aug 09, 2011 7:58 pm

Davis 51 wrote:He was the chief negotiator for a single side of the entire debate that walked away from talks consistently and bragged about getting 98% of what he wanted in the end by holding the full faith and credit of the US Government Hostage.

I'm pretty sure I can blame him. The "pox on both houses" thing to me, is just an excuse for avoiding critical thinking.


And judging a politicians words while he is sucking up to the camera is thinking critically? It's apparent he said what he did to make it look like some glorious victory for his party, as all politicians do. They always have to upstage each other and make it seem their party prevailed and the American people are the big winners.

"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy." -- Ernest Benn

If the democrats are blameless, then why didn't they block it? The fact of the matter is, the bill was rewritten many times with both parties present. Obama was there, Reid was there. Obama threatened to go to the American people in one meeting where compromise was stonewalled. Why didn't he? All I seem to recall was some stupid scare tactic that social security checks might not go out on time.

After everything is done, if one party screws things up, it's only because the other party remained silent.
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Re: US Credit Score: AAA to AA+

Postby BasharOfTheAges » Tue Aug 09, 2011 8:09 pm

Glitzer wrote:Obama threatened to go to the American people in one meeting where compromise was stonewalled. Why didn't he?

Did you miss the whole "phone congress" speech he gave that resulted in thousands of email and phone calls every hour for a few days straight? Granted, most of them were probably the vocal far right and left folks fuming with anger and rhetoric laden soundbites that just called to fan the flames further and encourage more digging in because they knew they were right...
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Re: US Credit Score: AAA to AA+

Postby Glitzer » Tue Aug 09, 2011 8:24 pm

BasharOfTheAges wrote:Did you miss the whole "phone congress" speech he gave that resulted in thousands of email and phone calls every hour for a few days straight?


Why yes, I suppose I did. I respectfully retract that point, thanks for bringing it up.

BasharOfTheAges wrote:Granted, most of them were probably the vocal far right and left folks fuming with anger and rhetoric laden soundbites that just called to fan the flames further and encourage more digging in because they knew they were right...


It's unfortunate people think those on the fringe are in the majority because they are much more vocal than the reserved moderates. What we could use are more outspoken moderates, DAMNIT!
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Re: US Credit Score: AAA to AA+

Postby Davis 51 » Tue Aug 09, 2011 8:33 pm

Glitzer wrote:And judging a politicians words while he is sucking up to the camera is thinking critically? It's apparent he said what he did to make it look like some glorious victory for his party, as all politicians do. They always have to upstage each other and make it seem their party prevailed and the American people are the big winners.
Yes. He can't have it both ways. Either he expects us to take his word seriously, or not. If not, then he has no business being Speaker of the House. Saying that it's "just him doing what all politicians do" is a cop-out. If this isn't what he wanted, he shouldn't have walked out of negotiations.

If the democrats are blameless, then why didn't they block it? The fact of the matter is, the bill was rewritten many times with both parties present. Obama was there, Reid was there. Obama threatened to go to the American people in one meeting where compromise was stonewalled. Why didn't he? All I seem to recall was some stupid scare tactic that social security checks might not go out on time.

After everything is done, if one party screws things up, it's only because the other party remained silent.
He did go to the people. He addressed the nation, which tied up phone lines in congress straight up to the vote. In case you haven't been paying attention to the polls, the GOP is circling the drain, precisely because he took his case to the people.

You don't seem to understand the consequences of a default. If it was a scare tactic, it's only because the danger was very real, and far worse than just social security checks. Full blown Great Depression 2.0.

And we didn't default. We also managed to protect Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid for the time being. The truth is, the S&P downgrade is mostly symbolic, but its symbolism that carries a lot of weight. We needed to cut more. SS, Medicare/Medicaid do need restructuring. We do need to raise taxes. It's blatant that the S&P has way more credibility than it should, esp. the way it was handing out AAA ratings to everyone and their grandma, but their stated reasons for the downgrade was crystal clear. We have become dysfunctional to the point where a single fanatical minority group can block up both houses and steer the country to catastrophe. They specifically mentioned the lack of revenue increases as one of the biggest reasons.

The reason isn't because the Democrats were "silent". It's because they weren't willing to play Russian roulette with the economy. Unlike the GOP, they can be pigheaded, but they're not a purely ideologically motivated cult. They don't drive to one lockstep, and I'd rather keep it that way than see them turn into a cult of their own.

Yeah, they gave in. It sucks. What would you have them do? What do you think Democrats yelling loudly and stamping their feet would have accomplished? The people voted in the Tea Party. The Tea Party put their hands on a button and said "I'LL FUCKING DO IT!" If it's anyone's fault, it's the fault of the American people for being made up entirely of apathetic morons who didn't understand they were electing a bunch of fanatics, many of whom wish we did default.

Boner represents them. He is their mouthpiece. The buck stops with him, because he thought it would be a good idea to play this sick, twisted game in the first place. It's a game that should never have been played, and one can hardly blame Obama and Reid for trying to act in good faith. Obama and Reid may have been naive to think that they could be negotiated with, but that does not make them malicious.
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Re: US Credit Score: AAA to AA+

Postby Glitzer » Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:38 pm

Davis 51 wrote:You don't seem to understand the consequences of a default. If it was a scare tactic, it's only because the danger was very real, and far worse than just social security checks.


Forgive me for not understanding. Reid said that Social Security is "fully funded" and he was sick of people bringing it up when they talk about the debt. Obama said he couldn't guarantee those checks would go out. Who is lying?

Davis 51 wrote:Full blown Great Depression 2.0.


We are not even in the same realm of the Great Depression. Stock markets hit an all time high a while ago, and people are generally well off. Wait 6 months - year we're going to be in much worse shape as they are going to continue to spend and dig us deeper into debt. Like I previously mentioned, we have been doing this for forty years, it isn't going anywhere.



Davis 51 wrote:In case you haven't been paying attention to the polls


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Davis 51 wrote:And we didn't default. We also managed to protect Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid for the time being.


So which is it? Boehner screwed us or saved us? Since you know, this deal is all his doing.

Davis 51 wrote:The truth is, the S&P downgrade is mostly symbolic, but its symbolism that carries a lot of weight. We needed to cut more. SS, Medicare/Medicaid do need restructuring. We do need to raise taxes.


Couldn't agree more. "Taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society", Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.

"Cut more" is a bit of an understatement though. Either we make massive spending cuts like never seen before or we go to 'AA'.

Davis 51 wrote: their stated reasons for the downgrade was crystal clear. We have become dysfunctional to the point where a single fanatical minority group can block up both houses and steer the country to catastrophe. They specifically mentioned the lack of revenue increases as one of the biggest reasons.


"We lowered our long-term rating on the U.S. because we believe that the prolonged controversy over raising the statutory debt ceiling and the related fiscal policy debate indicate that further near-term progress containing the growth in public spending, especially on entitlements, or on reaching an agreement on raising revenues is less likely than we previously assumed and will remain a contentious and fitful process. We also believe that the fiscal consolidation plan that Congress and the Administration agreed to this week falls short of the amount that we believe is necessary to stabilize the general government debt burden by the middle of the decade."

They did not say "single fanatical minority group" they said "Congress and the Administration". Revenue was mentioned, along with all of our other problems, but you can't base from that their believing it's the biggest reason.

Also,

"Standard & Poor’s takes no position on the mix of spending and revenue measures that Congress and the Administration might conclude is appropriate for putting the U.S.’s finances on a sustainable footing."

Davis 51 wrote:The reason isn't because the Democrats were "silent". It's because they weren't willing to play Russian roulette with the economy. Unlike the GOP, they can be pigheaded, but they're not a purely ideologically motivated cult. They don't drive to one lockstep, and I'd rather keep it that way than see them turn into a cult of their own.


Here's a history lesson. We had a "Grace Commission" called in 1982.

From wiki:
"The Grace Commission Report[3] was presented to Congress in January 1984. The report claimed that if its recommendations were followed, $424 billion could be saved in three years, rising to $1.9 trillion per year by the year 2000. It estimated that the national debt, without these reforms, would rise to $13 trillion by the year 2000, while with the reforms they projected it would rise to only $2.5 trillion.[4] Congress ignored the commission's report. The debt reached $5.8 trillion in the year 2000.[5][6] The national debt reached 13 trillion after the subprime mortgage-collateralized debt obligation crisis in 2008.

The report said that one-third of all income taxes is consumed by waste and inefficiency in the federal government, and another one-third escapes collection owing to the underground economy. “With two thirds of everyone’s personal income taxes wasted or not collected, 100 percent of what is collected is absorbed solely by interest on the federal debt and by federal government contributions to transfer payments. In other words, all individual income tax revenues are gone before one nickel is spent on the services [that] taxpayers expect from their government."[4]

After that they passed the The Gramm-Rudman-Hollings Balanced Budget and Emergency Deficit Control Act of 1985, "the first binding constraint imposed on federal spending, and its spending caps have become part of every subsequent U.S. budget. Together with a rapidly growing economy it produced the first balanced federal budget in a quarter of a century."

The Republicans and Democrats have either forgotten that or ignored it.

Davis 51 wrote:The people voted in the Tea Party. The Tea Party put their hands on a button and said "I'LL FUCKING DO IT!" If it's anyone's fault, it's the fault of the American people for being made up entirely of apathetic morons who didn't understand they were electing a bunch of fanatics, many of whom wish we did default.


If EvaFan doesn't mind, I'll steal his brilliant quote,

“There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties, each arranged under its leader, and concerting measures in opposition to each other. This, in my humble apprehension, it to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution.”
—John Adams

Even though I disagree with the Tea Party, at least it's an attempt to interfere with the the leviathan two party system. Something I can support.

Davis 51 wrote:Boner represents them. He is their mouthpiece. The buck stops with him, because he thought it would be a good idea to play this sick, twisted game in the first place. It's a game that should never have been played


Yep. It's a dangerous game the politicians play with our money, with the American people as the big loser.

Davis 51 wrote:Obama and Reid may have been naive to think that they could be negotiated with, but that does not make them malicious.


I never once said they were malicious. Just liars.
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Re: US Credit Score: AAA to AA+

Postby EvaFan » Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:00 am

The thing with government is all government jobs are paid for by people with real jobs and those are in decline right now. Goverment jobs should reflect the economy. Cant have tons of jobs lost and still expect to make the same in taxes to cover current costs.

I'm all for pay cuts for everyone with a government job cept maybe the necessities that deserve it like teachers, fireman, policemen, etc... sorry but thats just how it is. The rest of the US is dealing with money problems so you can afford a 10-15% paycut. Too many boneheads in washington to realize something so simple but then again why would they pass a law that involves paycuts for them, instead lets just raise taxes.
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Re: US Credit Score: AAA to AA+

Postby BasharOfTheAges » Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:36 am

Glitzer wrote:
Davis 51 wrote:You don't seem to understand the consequences of a default. If it was a scare tactic, it's only because the danger was very real, and far worse than just social security checks.


Forgive me for not understanding. Reid said that Social Security is "fully funded" and he was sick of people bringing it up when they talk about the debt. Obama said he couldn't guarantee those checks would go out. Who is lying?

Strictly speaking, neither is, Social Security is fully funded by it's own investments; it has it's own internally balanced budget, using its revenues to pay its debts. Governmental budgets don't necessarily work like that, though. Just because you bring in as much or more than you spend as a department, doesn't mean your revenues are your own. That money could be taken in times of need and spent elsewhere. Since the paying of Social Security checks is dependent on having money to do so, and the need to pay off debt interest was deemed a higher one to keep a good credit rating, there was a chance that some or all checks would go unpaid. The president couldn't guarantee what would or wouldn't be paid because that wouldn't be his decision to make.

Both statements were true, albeit somewhat vacuous.
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