Lucid Dreaming

[hasteroth]

A lucid dream, in simplest terms, is a dream in which one is aware that one is dreaming. The term was coined by the Dutch psychiatrist and writer Frederik van Eeden (1860–1932).

We've been exploring the concept of dreaming in philosophy class so I'd like to pose a question, or rather a chain of questions. I'm trying to gather some different perspectives. These questions do partially represent my perspective, however I have tried to design them to provoke thought and gather as many different perspectives as I can, with my limited abilities. And I don't want any quotes, I'd prefer any and all responses to be entirely off the top of your head. No research. There is no concrete justification for this it's just a feeling I have that I can get a more accurate representation of a person's perspective this way.

If we are not normally aware of the fact that we are dreaming while we are dreaming, does that not make the dream when we are dreaming as real as reality is when we are living it?
Is lucid dreaming really possible?
If dreamers dreaming and reality being lived are the same, then does this not present the possibility that we are always dreaming, not aware that we are dreaming?
If this is the case would one not be able to control "reality" should they realize they are dreaming?
If so then why has reality not changed?
Or has it changed and we are just not aware of the change? Have our memories been inserted to create a false past?
But then why does the moment feel so different than the then? Why can we distinguish between these two?
Or is lucid dreaming really impossible? Or is there too much doubt in our minds for us to see it and embrace it?

[MOD258: Added the new question to main post.]

[Kionon]

As tempting as it is to pull out my own work and quote from it, you said you wanted it off the top of my head, so my answers may be incomplete.

If we are not normally aware of the fact that we are dreaming while we are dreaming, does that not make the dream when we are dreaming as real as reality is when we are living it?

It does not. I have written quite a few papers related to the skeptical scenario, which is what you have just presented above. There are semantic differences in what Dream-You says you know about your world and what Real-You says you know about the world. These semantic differences exist because of inherent content differences. Let me explain:

When Real-You says, "I know I am sitting at my computer" you are really saying, "I know I am sitting at a computer."

However, when Dream-You says, "I know I am sitting at my computer," you are really saying, "I know my {sitting at a computer dream experience is happening}."

Real-You is using Real-English, and Dream-You is using Dream-English. Although they may appear to have the same words, in fact they have very important semantic differences. This is known as semantic reliablism. Indeed, if both Dream-You and Real-You have different experiences you represent semantically, then you both have content reliablism. Although, prima facea you appear to have uttered the same sentence in either case, in truth, you have uttered two different knowledge claims with different content.

Is lucid dreaming really possible?

Yes, although this not negate anything said above. In lucid dreaming there is no Dream-You. There is simply Real-You who has the same semantics and the same content. If Real-You in a lucid dream were to say, "I know I am sitting at my computer," you would know you were lying to yourself, after all, you would know you were dreaming, and therefore would know that in fact, the semantic meant and content of your statement should be, "I know my {sitting at a computer experience dream is happening}" and not what you uttered in the dream.

If dreamers dreaming and reality being lived are the same, then does this not present the possibility that we are always dreaming, not aware that we are dreaming?

Asked and answered. I am a classical foundationalist. Although an externalist, and not an internalist like Descartes, I reject scepticism due to my argument above. Should you be interested in a more significant explanation of my views, I can point you to my earliest, and probably most accessible, paper on the subject.

If this is the case would one not be able to control "reality" should they realize they are dreaming?
If so then why has reality not changed?

See above. Your questions are irrelevant given the above.

Or has it changed and we are just not aware of the change?
But then why does the moment feel so different than the then? Why can we distinguish between these two?
Or is lucid dreaming really impossible? Or is there too much doubt in our minds for us to see it and embrace it?


Ditto.

[McDirty]

[godix]

You questions lead to the general thrust of 'does our belief control reality'. So I'll answer the questions, but first a quick question for you to answer. Back in the early 1900's, people thought radium was good for you. They used to put some in water and sell it as a health tonic. Many people would down a bottle of this stuff a day in the genuine and sincere belief that it would make them healthy. Now the question, did that improve their health or did they die from radiation poisoning? The answer to that question will tell you if belief controls reality or if reality is independent of what we think about it.

If we are not normally aware of the fact that we are dreaming while we are dreaming, does that not make the dream when we are dreaming as real as reality is when we are living it?

At the time we certain perceive it as if it were real and, to us, there is no difference between the dream and reality. Our minds have a mechanism to essentially shut off parts of our bodies when we're asleep. So even as we dream and believe it's real, a base part of our brain knows it is not real and acts to keep the dream from affecting our body.

Mostly unrealated, but an interesting story of what it's like if our mind does not shut down our body: Mike Birbiglia's sleepwalk with me.

Is lucid dreaming really possible?

I've never done it, but enough people have reported doing it that I think it's possible. Much the same way as I've never been to Europe, but enough people have reported going there that I think Europe exists.

If dreamers dreaming and reality being lived are the same, then does this not present the possibility that we are always dreaming, not aware that we are dreaming?

The fact you would never, EVER, think of this question in a dream suggests no. When you're dreaming, there is no test that you can do that will show the dream is an external reality and you would never even think of doing so anyway. In the waking world, there are many tests showing an external reality and we do so constantly.

If this is the case would one not be able to control "reality" should they realize they are dreaming?

At best, they control how their mind is preceiving things at the moment. Which is not the same as controlling reality. Did people get healthy from drinking radioactive materials, or did they get radiation sickness?

[hasteroth]

Another thing, if you have never known an external reality and this is all a dream, how would one be able to tell? I'd like to see a counter that doesn't make any of the.. obvious assumptions such as the individual knowledge of the "sleeper", the nature of the world or dream in which the sleeper lives, and such.
When I refer to sleeper I am referring to the "external" entity that is dreaming this world, not the dream character.

[Otohiko]

Why are we assuming that 'dream' and 'reality' are separate and somehow mutually exclusive, anyway? Most dreams that you are aware of are heavily reality-based regardless, while conversely, you can perfectly well 'daydream' without actually 'leaving' reality in any way.

Perceptions of both dreams and reality are equally reliant on a) (material) brain physiology; b) (material) experience that trying to find some sort of metaphysical separation between the two is just a bunch of mystical fantasy.

You can only dream in relation to your fact of being human, physically and psychologically (not that those two things are separate, either). That doesn't mean that things other than humans (dogs, androids) necessarily can't dream, but you may as well be talking about a completely different phenomenon in that case. Dreams, let alone lucid dreams, are only possible to a (relatively) healthy, 'normal' human whose field of existence is primarily material. Dreams as such are material - in the context of brain chemistry, but material nonetheless. A 'sleeper who doesn't know external reality' isn't a human and can't dream. Either it's a comatose human whose 'dreaming' is some sort of chemical chain in the brain (i.e. in the end it's a form of external reality effecting it), or you're making assumption that human consciousness is available without the human part. That might be some other phenomenon, but again, you can't even begin to approach that unless you have some concrete, material point of reference. Which you do not, so you might as well give up and accept that dreaming is a very 'real', physiological and experiential phenomenon that can't be defined outside of physical, living humans.

You may as well be asking whether seeing or hearing or thinking actually exist. Of course they do - but as defined in relation to and within the limits of human physiology. That means that we don't actually see x-rays, hear ultrasound, or think outside categories and logical relations. That doesn't mean that the above things don't exist and can't be (indirectly) evidenced by humans. It's just that anything else isn't entirely available to us directly. You can stare at x-rays until you get cancer. You can imagine some external entity 'dreaming' reality for us until you go dumb. And that's not gonna get you any closer to 'truth', it'll only do what it says - give you cancer or make you dumb.

So better to stop looking for metaphysical excuses and actually consider yourself a material human with both limits and possibilities, working as best you can in the best available field of action. 'Dream action' and 'dream logic' are certainly possible, but ask yourself whether you really, honestly think that these are a good field of action and method for you as a physical human. Or whether that is indeed an indulgent exercise - in navel gazing at best, x-ray gazing at worst.

As for the whole 'is reality just an illusion' argument, again, I go back to my first point - the two things aren't necessarily separate. The problem is that it's very difficult to see, because our only points of reference are experiential. The very fact that you can only look at it as a "yes" or "no" question is already indicative of that - dualistic, categorical thinking is an experiential consequence of the material condition of being human. Dreams are interesting because they often break that kind of thinking, but if you look at it objectively - they still don't go outside of what are more or less categorical, exclusive connections. The difference with lucid dreams is that you can sense how 'broken' and 'weird' dream logic seems, and that's about it.

[hasteroth]

I actually agree with you for the most part. But I'd just like to mention that when I refer to a "dream character that does not know an external reality" I am referring to the character. The sleeper exists in the external reality. But the main problem I have with my own argument is that, like Oto said, how can one dream without an external reality? So it seems quite likely that this is the external reality or at least there is an external reality somewhere along the lines. Either way there must be an external reality.

[Panky]

Lucid dreaming is in fact possible. I experienced it a few times already, mostly after reading a pdf about the topic and thinking about it (it's in great part due to suggesting one's mind). It's basically the same as dreaming only that you're conscious of the fact that you are really dreaming. I could not really 'control the dream' itself (although I have read somewhere it was somehow possible) but I could manage the movement of the 'inner me'. You can also dream that you only see pitch black and have consciousness, which is pretty horrible because you feel you can't wake up nor move.

However, about living a dream, I don't think it's the case due to the fact that you experience that when sleeping and can realize that it's quite different to the subject living in a reality.
Then again, like you say, if someone doesn't ever know the external reality to begin with, it's really hard to difference between both because there was never a difference to begin with. The fact that you don't know a external reality could mean as well that there was never another one.

[JaddziaDax]

I have too experienced lucid dreams however I can barely control anything that is going on outside of being aware that I was dreaming. I tried too and usually when I'm about to be successful at making something appear out of "air" I usually wake up.

I've found, for me, that the key to lucid dreaming very much lies in remembering your dreams and becoming aware of patterns. Dreams tend to be repetitive.

But on the subject of controlling dreams, I've found that if I'm having a bad dream, that I will often change it by either switching to dreaming of something else, or waking up and falling back asleep, or just taking control of my own actions. I'm rarely ever aware that I'm dreaming when this happens.

I don't believe that dreams are an "alternate reality".

[8bit_samurai]

I've been able to wake myself up or knew when I was going to wake up when I'm dreaming, but other than that haven't been able to control them.

You can also dream that you only see pitch black and have consciousness, which is pretty horrible because you feel you can't wake up nor move.

I've had these before, but in them I'm trying to wake up, and no matter how hard I try, I cannot, as it takes all I got to lift my head and open my eyes. Though when I do open my eyes (more like squinting, actually), I usually see some other place I slept before. These dreams really do seem real, which sucks since when I actually wake up I gotta look around to see where I really am.