Welcome to General Deception

This forum is for members to discuss topics that do not relate to anime music videos.

Re: Welcome to General Deception

Postby 8bit_samurai » Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:57 pm

Hosting is free :/ I donate because I want to, not because I have to. If I were donating just to host, then I been wasting my money because I haven't released anything for 4 years now and haven't had my videos downloaded for over 6 months now.

From what I heard the (old) community has been dying for 5+ years now, and to some, it has been dead for those 5+ years. Of course, the only part of the community I've been part of is these forums and can't really speak of anything else and just echo from what I heard. From when I joined, a lot of the editors and members of the forums I respected have disappeared, and I have asked myself a couple times why am I still here. Well, since then new members have replaced the old ones, and I may or may not respect them, but they are still part of the community. Of course the number of members joining may or may not be the same as the members leaving, but there's still seems enough to be a community. It may not seem like the community I once was part of, but I've been able to adapt. Welcome to the new community. I'm pretty sure if you just accept it and just have fun, you'll be able to adapt. Unless of course you vision of fun is to ramble on about the old days and give admins/mods a hard time about these old flames. Row row fight the powah, etc, etc.
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Re: Welcome to General Deception

Postby wurpess » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:09 pm

Um, being ex-MI, I have a pretty good idea of how deeply fucked things are, and how much the government tries to cover up. Unless you work for a government agency that deals in classified information, I probably know more than you. These days, it doesn't seem like wars are fought for much other reason than for politicians to make a profit and protect their investments. I am not as complacent and stupid as you may think. My drinking has not impared my judgement any, only given me the ability to stomach it without killing anyone, and makes me see that you can't spend every moment of every waking day worrying and thinking everyone is out to get you. You only get one life, you need to enjoy it.


Ok, you are obviously not married or have kids. So therefore you have no idea how expensive and time consuming it is to have a family. -_-

The way I look at it, the donator perks are kinda like NPO's giving t-shirts to people who donate. Many people will donate because they want to and the shirt is just a perk. Though you will still get people who will donate just because they want the shirt. No matter what donations are being collected for and in what way the organization gives its thanks, that's how it goes. (Like 8-bit, I donate because I want to, not for hosting or for perks. I would also be wasting my money if that was the case.) The donation stats are located in the sidebar on the front page under the 'Donate' tab. It's not some hidden secret. I have never had problems asking mods/admins about stuff if I've had a question about how things are run or if I have a problem. Art and creativity do not revolve around the internet. It may be a good way to spread ideas and share your work, but you don't need the internet or a web site to be creative or talk to other artists. And your arguments seem to be more centered around world politics than a web site or a hobby. Granted there are some similarities, but hobbies and web sites built around a hobby should not be taken as seriously as the state of the world. It's supposed to be fun. The actions of the mods/admin are not like the actions of congress and other government officials where it could affect the lives of an entire country. In fact, it doesn't even really affect creativity or your abilities as an AMVer. It just affects the place where you put your AMVs. And as Oto said, it was originally intended as a library, so that is what it should be run as.
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Re: Welcome to General Deception

Postby Arigatomina » Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:20 pm

Why do people keep using the library reference? The org isn't a library. Authors can have their books removed from libraries. No library would ever tell an author "we're keeping a copy of your book on our shelf because the kids might stop visiting us otherwise." Libraries don't keep a hardcopy of every book on their shelves, they keep a list and if someone requests a book that they don't have available, they send for it and the person waits until it arrives. Libraries don't worry about the potential reader getting tired of waiting and going to the tube down the street.

Libraries are paid for by the city, not the visitors. Unless the library seriously angers the visitors, it has guaranteed funding. It looks good to have a library, so the city takes care of it. The org is funded by the visitors. It has to please those visitors in order to get anything. It has to service them and keep them happy because there is not city around to preserve the org just because it looks good to have an org within the district. If those visitors decide to be total cheapskates, they can go to that tube down the street and the org is left in the lurch.

A library doesn't care if it only gets a few visitors per week and a busload of kids every now and then. The people working there get paid regardless. For the org, lack of visitors means lack of everything that donations pay for. It also means fewer viewers, which means fewer editors, which means fewer amvs on the shelf. A library doesn't have to worry about luring in new writers to stock its shelves. People write books and the library picks the ones it thinks are PC enough to be on its shelf. The org doesn't get new amvs unless the editors come to it. So it has to keep the current editors happy and lure in new ones. That means keeping viewers available to watch what those editors are offering here. If there are no viewers here, the editors take their amvs to the tube down the street. People don't post their books to a library hoping to get new readers. Their profit comes from selling books, so the fewer free copies read in the library, the better. The writers whose books are hosted in libraries are the complete opposite of the amv editors whose vids are hosted here on the org.

I'm sure there are lots of other differences, but you get the point. If the org were a library, then it wouldn't worry about attracting new people, whether they're viewers or editors. It would be funded by an outside source that pays to keep it around just because it looks good to have an org around. It would add amvs to its collection without forcing editors to join and upload the vids themselves. It would be out there looking for new vids and asking the editors' permission to host them here on the org. If it doesn't get permission, then it will list the vid and link to wherever it's being distributed instead of hosting a copy itself. Reviews would not be for the editors. The only feedback that takes place in a library are reading clubs where readers talk to each other and post blogs to be read by other readers. Amv ops would be for potential readers just like book reviews are. I personally think an amv library would be a great resource and as a viewer, I'd love to hang out in one. But that's not what the org is. It's a place that encourages editors to make vids so it can host them to attract viewers who will give editors more reason to make vids so the org can host them to attract new viewers and editors and hopefully one or two of them might donate enough for the org to stick around another year.

The org is nothing like a library at all. I don't think it ever was. It's a year-round online convention where editors offer their vids while chatting amongst themselves and viewers sample the goods while chatting amongst themselves. Maybe a few meet&greet autograph sessions between fans and their idols, with Q&A teaching panels and discussion groups in the corners. At the end of the day a handful go home and another handful come in and it continues. The org is a meeting place for amv fans and in order to exist it services those fans and is supported by those fans. A library is a collection of goods made by people who will never step foot into that particular building, that is supported because "it looks good" to have one around, and any exchange between writers and readers only takes place if they have a guest author (which is more likely to happen in a bookstore than a library).
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Re: Welcome to General Deception

Postby Otohiko » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:03 pm

That's the definition of a public library. There are, broadly speaking, other kinds of libraries. Of course the .org isn't run like a public library, although there are a few obvious similarities. It is, importantly, run with a collection-for-public-interest sort of mindset.

Not to say there's no flaws in the way the .org's goals are set up. Actually there are many, and in many ways the .org's mission is unrealistic and often conflicts with reality. However that's how its architecture is set up right now, and we're stuck while the site is being re-written. So if you have ideas as to how it should be run - like I said, we have a whole forum about it! Please, the input is wanted and honestly right now is a good time for those with concrete, practical ideas as far as adjusting the .org's operating model to air them out and put them to the administration.

What I am saying, though, is that it's unlikely that the .org will stop being a video-cataloguing site, even assuming major adjustments.
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Re: Welcome to General Deception

Postby JaddziaDax » Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:07 am

Uh, he got the off topic forum back. I'm confused still as to what his complaint is any more O.o If the mods were really trying to censor us, then I guess they would have deleted this entire thread/locked it so no more discussion could be made on it. The youtube censor has also been removed. I would think that the mods are recently making changes for the better, or am I mistaken?

Is it because the old OT is hidden? oh no! that's all old shit from how many years ago! is it even relevant anymore? OT was closed before I joined the forum discussion, so I guess it doesn't matter to me. Who wants to revive a dead thread from years ago anyway?

Is it because some people asked for their posts from the "donator's forum" to also be hidden? who cares? they are just a couple of pictures and complaints/happyness anyway! This doesn't stop anyone's creativity.

As for advantages of the donator status... I donno, I donate because this community has given me a lot, and I want to give back to that. Having the extra "new vid on the blocks" is nice too, but I think I could survive without an edit button in the forum either way. (Maybe I'll just have to think about what I type before I type it next time?) I guess I don't pay enough attention to the other features to really have the rest of them matter too much to me.

As for the library complaint. I've seen even public libraries do donation drives where they hand out t-shirts because the funding from the city/state isn't enough. I've also seen libraries stock DVDs, popular authors, and Manga to get more card holding users in their doors as well. Hmmmn this sounds fairly familiar.

Besides, where do you think all that public funding comes from? the city? where does the city get it's money? TAXES. Where do Taxes come from? (lets say it all together folks...) THE PUBLIC. So you are right, the org isn't like a library at all. We don't charge the entirety of the internet to host us, only ask that the people who visit generously donate. Besides, we don't charge membership fees for downloads, late fees (can you return an amv?), make people pay for books not returned, ruined, etc.
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Re: Welcome to General Deception

Postby Otohiko » Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:24 am

Thanks JaddziaDax

JaddziaDax wrote:Is it because the old OT is hidden? oh no! that's all old shit from how many years ago! is it even relevant anymore? OT was closed before I joined the forum discussion, so I guess it doesn't matter to me. Who wants to revive a dead thread from years ago anyway?


By the way, my offer still stands here - if this is a reason you (i.e. NME, other members with concerns of this nature) suspect censorship, I have no issue either a) looking up specific things that interest you from the old OT; b) petitioning those with the technical know-how for those archives to be made available externally. There's seriously nothing to hide there, aside from the fact that a forum that's been dead for 7 years is going to do nothing but clutter the board without purpose. So if for some reason you want to see these, I'm pretty sure we can make that happen. I don't think that's what you're really asking for, but since I'm not sure what you're asking for, I thought I'd extend that offer again.
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Re: Welcome to General Deception

Postby Pwolf » Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:34 am

Arigatomina wrote:Libraries are paid for by the city, not the visitors.


Where do you think the city gets the money to run said library?
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Re: Welcome to General Deception

Postby JaddziaDax » Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:46 am

Otohiko wrote:b) petitioning those with the technical know-how for those archives to be made available externally. There's seriously nothing to hide there, aside from the fact that a forum that's been dead for 7 years is going to do nothing but clutter the board without purpose. So if for some reason you want to see these, I'm pretty sure we can make that happen. I don't think that's what you're really asking for, but since I'm not sure what you're asking for, I thought I'd extend that offer again.


We could always add cluttera subforum to this forum with the archives of the old OT and just leave all the dead threads locked... However you are right, it's probably clutter that's only good for nostalgia binges O.o
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Re: Welcome to General Deception

Postby Arigatomina » Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:54 am

I get the feeling everyone's intentionally missing my point. (Except Oto, props for understanding my English). Thanks. Now I have an excuse to repeat it.

Libraries don't need to attract writers in order to get books to stock their shelves. The org does.

Libraries are funded by taxes paid by people who may never use that library, and who would rather their taxes had gone to a community service they do use. Tax payers don't get to choose how much of their taxes go to each state funded program. The org is funded by donations paid directly to the org by people who do so because they use the org and like something the org is providing them.

Libraries provide books to readers who can't afford them or who don't want to pay for them. Libraries take profits out of the pockets of the authors whose books they share for free. The org provides amv hosting to editors who can't afford to buy their own or who don't want to use the free alternatives. The org gives profits (feedback, help) to editors by giving them easy access to a pre-existing pool of viewers. Libraries serve readers at the expense of writers. The org serves editors at the expense of...editors, mainly, since they're the ones who donate both the amvs and the money.

Writers would continue to write books even if readers stopped visiting libraries because writers do most of their "sharing" by selling. Writers would continue to write and sell books even if libraries no longer existed. Editors might not continue to make amvs if viewers stopped visiting the places where amvs are shared. Editors might not continue to make amvs if org and tube style amv-sharing places no longer existed.

Writers were writing and sharing books long before libraries came into existence. Editors only made vids for a few years before the org popped up to bring them to one place. Libraries popped up so people wouldn't have to buy their books in stores. The org and the tube popped up because people *can't* sell their amvs in stores.

Libraries = have stocked shelves whether writers choose to donate books or not.
The org = has nothing if editors choose not to donate amvs.

Libraries = go out and find books to add to their collection.
The org = makes editors come to it, bringing their amvs with them.

Libraries = for readers, funded by taxpayers (who are mainly readers).
The org = for editors, funded by editors (who are also viewers).

Big Bold Bottom Line (aka, the main point): The purpose of a library is to provide poor people with the same books rich people can afford. The purpose of the org is to create and encourage editors to make and continue making amvs so that the hobby doesn't die out.

Is that more clear? Because I don't like derailing NME's rant here. Maybe a mod can break this into a seperate "Org vs Libraries" thread. Then I can repeat myself ad nauseam until I find the right words to get my point across.
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Re: Welcome to General Deception

Postby Otohiko » Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:18 am

Arigatomina wrote:
Big Bold Bottom Line (aka, the main point): The purpose of a library is to provide poor people with the same books rich people can afford. The purpose of the org is to create and encourage editors to make and continue making amvs so that the hobby doesn't die out.


This is a very interesting and useful point, thanks for making that.

I think one of the problems is that when phade set up the site, there was a (at the time, pretty correct) assumption of interest in AMVs being a given - and so the site was set up to collect first, and to promote/encourage later. And here it's valid to make the criticism that the designers of the site didn't think about the problem of attracting editors rather than viewers in the long term.

When the site was set up, it saw AMVs as a spinoff of the North American con scene. Phade saw his first videos at cons, and wanted to make a site that made it easy for people who saw videos at cons to go online and find those videos and more. But in the last few years, the scene changed dramatically. In that time, the .org got the ambition of becoming a kind of global center of AMVing while retaining the same old architecture. In the end, something totally weird happened: the .org never fully got its head around 'international' AMVing or, even with growing membership from around the world, managed to actually bring different AMV scenes together effectively; and at the same time the .org also lost touch with its original roots in the North American con scene to a large extent. The result? I think the promotional purpose of the site got diluted, because there is this continued assumption that as long as we continue to have a place to host and search for videos, they will come. But that's not how it really happens, is it.

That's not a policy/administration problem so much as it's an architecture problem though. And only a redesign of the site architecture will fix it. In the meantime, honestly, collecting the videos and keeping the place civil is still the best thing we can do.

Honestly, we need a balance of both. And much more than any OT forums, archives, or other means of fraternizing, the site could help encourage participation by three things: (1) a new and improved set of 'official' guides on the site; (2) better featuring of content - both AMVs themselves, and things like articles, interviews, and other features to keep the scene interested; (3) site events, activities and involvement with promoting AMVs both on the site (like contests, sponsored ICs, etc. etc.), and outside of the site - be it at cons or through outreach to international AMV scenes.

But yeah, we're getting a bit off topic here...
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Re: Welcome to General Deception

Postby godix » Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:23 am

Arigatomina wrote:Why do people keep using the library reference? The org isn't a library. Authors can have their books removed from libraries. No library would ever tell an author "we're keeping a copy of your book on our shelf because the kids might stop visiting us otherwise."

Actually, this is false. Once an author signs a contract to have his book published, their control is done. The book is out there, their name is on it, and they can't pull it back and make libraries give back the book. Now a library might choose to comply if an author asks for their book to be removed, but there's no requirement for them to do so and a lot probably wouldn't comply too. At best, authors have the option of not allowing new releases of that work beyond what the original contract allowed.

Which is pretty much how the org works. Once you agree to have the org host your videos, your control is done. You can ask the org to delete your video, and in some very specific circumstances the org will agree, but there's nothing that requires it delete them and a lot of times they won't. You can refuse permission to upload it elsewhere, but it's here on the org because you agreed to allow that.

Or look at cons. Some cons keep any video ever sent to them. They have massive amounts of videos store and can play any of them at the con, or any future con, without you being able to stop it. If you ask nicely, they might delete your video out of that, but it's not required they do so.

Have you ever read the terms and conditions of pretty much any site that allows posts? Almost all of them have some sort of legalise speak about how once you hit submit on a comment, the website can host it until the big crunch if they want. Your control over distribution of that comment is done. In some cases, you give the website permission to reprint your comment, which means they can slap it into a book and sell it and you have no ability to prevent that.

Then there are the wayback machine, video aggregation sites, people who upload vids to other sites without the authors knowledge, etc. Look at Tom The Fish, he deleted his video what, a decade ago? Yet if I made a post in GAMV asking for one of his old ones I would almost certainly get someone to give me a copy.

I don't understand why some think the org not allowing deletion is a big deal. It's the internet. From the moment someone chooses to put something on the net, they have lost all control over distribution of it. Anyone who thinks otherwise just doesn't understand how the internet works.
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Re: Welcome to General Deception

Postby Arigatomina » Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:31 am

godix wrote:I don't understand why some think the org not allowing deletion is a big deal. It's the internet. From the moment someone chooses to put something on the net, they have lost all control over distribution of it. Anyone who thinks otherwise just doesn't understand how the internet works.

I didn't know that about libraries. I'm actually really curious how they get permission to share any copywritten books at all. I suspect there's some sort of royalties involved somewhere. As possessive as publishers are, not to mention individual authors, they must be getting something in exchange for letting free copies be shared with the masses. Maybe I'll check my library to see if there's a book on the subject. ;p

About the deletion. For me, it was originally because I didn't see any small print warning about it. I still maintain that there was no small print until at least a year after I started uploading amvs here. I joined for the carrot and if I had seen small print warning me of this policy I wouldn't have shelled out the $50 for it. If anyone wants to check old copies of the site, I'd be happy to be proven wrong and have this chip removed from my shoulder. After the small print was added (I first noticed it in 2005), I still didn't like it because I wanted the org to be above that sort of thing. Snubbing editors? Biting the hand that feeds you, you mean. Today, I don't personally care any more. But I think other people will care because the tube exists now and you can delete any vids you want over there. The org is going to be compared with the other huge amv hosting site and that one lets creators have control over the distribution of their work. That makes it a better hosting alternative for those who are as possessive of their vids as any other hobbyist (compare to scanlations, fanfics, fanart, etc).

I'm stuck in the middle of wars about people hosting other people's fanworks without permission or refusing to remove them if permission is withdrawn - in every anime related hobby I participate in. It's the big "war" I see going on these days between fan-creators and those who want to get visitors by sharing what those creators 'created'. And if that war breaks out with amvs, the org is going to be the bad guy and the tube is going to be the good guy. It's a matter of priciple that I will never support the org taking a stance that makes the tube look like the good guys in comparison. It pains me to point out ways they're superior to any site, let alone the org.

Otohiko wrote:...and things like articles, interviews, and other features to keep the scene interested...

That's the sort of thing I'd look forward to. But it seems like a moot subject when we don't even know if there will be room for an 'articles/etc' tab on the main page after everything is reformatted. I'd want to know if any activity is going to flow past that section before I'd start trying to flesh it out. If no one knows it exists, there's no point. If the section doesn't get traffic, then things that would go there can be stickied in GenAmv instead.

/love this edit button, no double posting necessary 8-)
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Re: Welcome to General Deception

Postby BasharOfTheAges » Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:03 am

Arigatomina wrote:
godix wrote:I don't understand why some think the org not allowing deletion is a big deal. It's the internet. From the moment someone chooses to put something on the net, they have lost all control over distribution of it. Anyone who thinks otherwise just doesn't understand how the internet works.

I didn't know that about libraries. I'm actually really curious how they get permission to share any copywritten books at all. I suspect there's some sort of royalties involved somewhere. As possessive as publishers are, not to mention individual authors, they must be getting something in exchange for letting free copies be shared with the masses. Maybe I'll check my library to see if there's a book on the subject. ;p

It's called the first sale doctrine. Once you sell or otherwise transfer ownership of a product (think donations or gifts), you give up all rights on saying what people can do with it. They can even lend it out to other people. They bought the copy, it's theirs to do with as they see fit. Granted they can't make copies of it (and "public performance" is a touchy subject), but they can do what they want with their own copy, including lending it out. This concept is codified in US copyright law and has a good deal of history in being upheld in federal court.
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Re: Welcome to General Deception

Postby godix » Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:14 pm

Arigatomina wrote:I didn't know that about libraries. I'm actually really curious how they get permission to share any copywritten books at all. I suspect there's some sort of royalties involved somewhere. As possessive as publishers are, not to mention individual authors, they must be getting something in exchange for letting free copies be shared with the masses. Maybe I'll check my library to see if there's a book on the subject. ;p

Not that it matters too much, but publishers often charge libraries more for a book than what bookstores do. I think it's because to loan to the general public, as opposed to loaning a book to a friend, requires special licensing. Regardless, once the library has legally purchased that book and those rights, authors can't do dick to have the book pulled.

Besides, every author who's opinion on libraries I've heard of strongly endorses libraries. Piers Anthony once mentioned that his books were being stolen from his local library so he donated new copies to the library. Why anyone would want to own a Piers Anthony book is beyond my comprehension though. Still, point is, you're far more likely to see professional authors assisting libraries distribute their work than to see them condemn libraries for it.

But I think other people will care because the tube exists now and you can delete any vids you want over there. The org is going to be compared with the other huge amv hosting site and that one lets creators have control over the distribution of their work.

And how many times have we seen videos reuploaded and available on dozens of different accounts? Sure, an editor can delete their copy of the video, but frequently that isn't even the most popular copy of that video on the tube anyway. Once something is on the net, there is no such thing as 'control over distribution of their work'. As you point out, other fandoms are having 'wars' as they slowly learn this lesson. Others who had to learn this lesson are scientology, the RIAA, and the MPAA. Do you *REALLY* endorse the exact same mentality that has lead to all the copyright issues we've seen over the last decade?

The only person who could stop distribution is the guy who sucks so much that anyone who downloaded a copy of their video immediately deleted it. And in that case, no one wanted his work anyway so it doesn't matter in the slightest.
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Re: Welcome to General Deception

Postby JaddziaDax » Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:34 pm

Arigatomina wrote:Libraries don't need to attract writers in order to get books to stock their shelves. The org does.

You are right they don't need to attract writers, they just stock their shelves with whatever they can buy. Sounds like the dead proxy account to me. Go out find popular amv and put it in the catalog. You want to talk about people not having the control after they upload, if we were to "stock our shelves" the way libraries do then we would have more pissed off people.

I don't see why donation method is a defining feature. While our funding methods may be different than a public library, that doesn't make the site less a library in general.

When people talk about the site itself as a library, they aren't talking about the people on the site, they are talking about the functionality of the site. When people talk about libraries they are talking about the building with the books inside it, not the readers or even the workers.

The basic functionality is to catalog the videos. Uploading and feedback were just the next step and were implemented so that viewers can access videos easier and contribute as well.

I think the attitude of some editors that viewer feedback is somehow worth less than editor feedback that has changed the shift of the view that this site is for editors only. This is one of the reasons I have been pushing for public preview, to draw in VIEWERS. Even if it's only a view count on my page, it means that the audience was there, even if silent. I respect the opinions and views of both editors and viewers, and I'd like to see more viewer related features on this site.

Also, those "profits" (feedback and help) are free for anyone who wants to try their hand at editing weather they are here or at youtube. A viewer can easily slip into becoming an editor. I was watching amvs/fanvideos for a few years before I started editing, and I know several people on this site probably wouldn't have thought to become an editor if they hadn't seen a video first.

Writers would continue to write books even if readers stopped visiting libraries because writers do most of their "sharing" by selling. Writers would continue to write and sell books even if libraries no longer existed. Editors might not continue to make amvs if viewers stopped visiting the places where amvs are shared. Editors might not continue to make amvs if org and tube style amv-sharing places no longer existed.

Please tell me you are only speaking for yourself. I'd continue to make videos if I had the ideas and inspirations to do so, even if the org wasn't around, because there are plenty of places for me to share my videos that aren't on the internet :P I rather enjoy submitting my videos to conventions and sharing them with my family and friends. This site just makes it easier to do so with friends that aren't local.

I bet a lot of authors would stop writing books if they heard that all the libraries were going to shut down. If at the very least out of protest. Lots of them actually love and appreciate libraries themselves, since when they were kids that's where they read a lot of their first books and became attracted to the profession. (I've heard similar sentiments from a specific John Green - a young adult author - who was running a youtube blog with his brother). A lot of writers just want their work read, and therefore majorly support libraries, and other places where their books can be accessed. (Godix also has a story to back this up)

Writers and Editors want the same thing: the audience, and they will usually go to where that audience can be reached.

AMVs (or at least fanvideos) might be older than you think. Do you remember the days of VCR2VCR? before there was internet sharing? Maybe writing technology has been around longer than the video age, but I don't see how this keeps the org from being a library. People were creating and sharing their videos at conventions long before the org or youtube existed. The internet just helped them to find a wider audience.

Libraries originally didn't pop up so people could access free books. PUBLIC libraries service that feature. Many original libraries didn't use to be that way, they were some rich guy's private collection of books. Repositories of knowledge for a school or a college, much like many of the guides here.

Libraries = have stocked shelves whether writers choose to donate books or not.
The org = has nothing if editors choose not to donate amvs.

Libraries = go out and find books to add to their collection.
The org = makes editors come to it, bringing their amvs with them.

The proxy account makes me think that somewhere along the line this policy was changed to suit someone who didn't want their video listed here. Still either way the collection is being created, the method is a null point.

Big Bold Bottom Line (aka, the main point): The purpose of a library is to provide poor people with the same books rich people can afford. The purpose of the org is to create and encourage editors to make and continue making amvs so that the hobby doesn't die out.

Once again there is more than one kind of library. That is the purpose of a public library... what about a private library? my personal private library of DVDs isn't to provide anyone with free access to DVDs. Screw that, if I were to lend out DVDs I probably wouldn't get them back! I'm sure that a school library isn't there to specifically supply books to anyone, it's there as a resource for the people attending the school. Not just anyone can go to a school library and borrow books.

Is that more clear? Because I don't like derailing NME's rant here. Maybe a mod can break this into a seperate "Org vs Libraries" thread. Then I can repeat myself ad nauseam until I find the right words to get my point across.

Oh you are pretty clear, however I think that your definition of a library and how one works, is rather limited. Even if some of the aspects of the org are unlike a PUBLIC library that doesn't mean that the org isn't essentially a library of amvs.

(wow I edited this too many times :P lol)
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JaddziaDax
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