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Krisqo · Post by **Krisqo** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:13 pm

JaddziaDax wrote:
Krisqo wrote:I'm a Christian but that does not mean I don't believe in evolution.
from what i can tell those are very few and far between....

the local walmart carries a christian section in the DVD area, it has such titles as "Animals that defy Evoloution" and how many times have i heard on the news about parents getting mad that evolution is being taught in the schools... that "all theories should be included, including creation-ism" or that there should be "huge warnings at the beginning of science books that say "this is only a theory" " O.o

The scary thing is... some of what I said (like the first books being written to keep exiled Jews in line) was written IN my high school Theology book and said to us by my theology teacher. Out of everything I can think of, it makes the most sense.

JaddziaDax · Post by **JaddziaDax** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:17 pm

Theology in Highschool... intersting O.o

Krisqo · Post by **Krisqo** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:18 pm

JaddziaDax wrote:Theology in Highschool... intersting O.o

Catholic High School >.<

JaddziaDax · Post by **JaddziaDax** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:23 pm

well that makes more sense... O:
I would have loved to take theology in Highschool
i went to public highschool (in a millitairy school district) I was lucky to get Choir and Drama O.o

SilversLightning · Post by **SilversLightning** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:32 pm

JaddziaDax wrote:its the MATRIX WE ARE ALL IN THE MATRIX!!!

There is no spoon

that would explain that missing sock: it never existed in the first place XD

Krisqo · Post by **Krisqo** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:49 pm

JaddziaDax wrote:well that makes more sense... O:
I would have loved to take theology in Highschool
i went to public highschool (in a millitairy school district) I was lucky to get Choir and Drama O.o

Believe me... it sucked. Especially if you had priests and nuns as teachers

Arigatomina · Post by **Arigatomina** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:52 pm

Krisqo wrote:God put the tree of Knowledge there and forbade Adam and Eve from eating the fruit as a test...

I think so, too. If you believe in an all knowing god, it must have been a test. Like a trick question. It set up guilt in the entire christian human line from that moment on. They spend the rest of eternity seeking forgiveness for failing that test.

Don't forget that God knows everything. Past future thoughts motives sins acolades. He knows everything. He knew the moment he put that tree there that if he worded his warning one way, they'd listen to the snake. If he worded it another way, they wouldn't listen to the snake. He knew the snake would be there because he knows everything. He created everything. Of course he knew they'd eat the fruit. To say he didn't know what choice they would make is to say he didn't know how the human 'world' would end. He knew. How else could he have told people what to write in revelations? If he can see that far into the future, how could he not realize that his newly created humans would be leaving his garden very quickly to start populating that world that was destined to end the way he dictated in revelations?

There is no free will. Not if you believe in the beginning and end of the bible. Not if you believe in an all knowing god. If he had told them 'eat of that fruit and you'll be kicked out of eden, your spawn will be cursed for life, and the new earth you'll populate will end as described in an apocalyptic chapter of a certain book that has yet to be written since you don't even know what clothes are yet' - they never would have eaten it. He knew that because he knows everything that has happened, is happening, and will happen.

With a perfect all seeing god, free will is an illusion. It's the hungry dog with two bowls of food - one with rat poison mixed in, the other with chocolate. He gets to pick which one to eat out of, but whatever choice he makes, we know he's going to be barfing or dying once he's finished because we set out the dishes for him. Rats in a maze might get to pick which direction they run in, but it's the guy who built the maze who has all the control.

Org Profile · Post by **Otohiko** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:59 pm

Arigatomina wrote: There is no free will. Not if you believe in the beginning and end of the bible. Not if you believe in an all knowing god. If he had told them 'eat of that fruit and you'll be kicked out of eden, your spawn will be cursed for life, and the new earth you'll populate will end as described in an apocalyptic chapter of a certain book that has yet to be written since you don't even know what clothes are yet' - they never would have eaten it. He knew that because he knows everything that has happened, is happening, and will happen.

With a perfect all seeing god, free will is an illusion. It's the hungry dog with two bowls of food - one with rat poison mixed in, the other with chocolate. He gets to pick which one to eat out of, but whatever choice he makes, we know he's going to be barfing or dying once he's finished because we set out the dishes for him. Rats in a maze might get to pick which direction they run in, but it's the guy who built the maze who has all the control.

Yes, but that's not something that requires an all-knowing god. There are plenty of other philosophical directions which discount the idea of a purely 'free will' (my own included); from social structures to very concrete physical and biological limits, there are actually very narrow possibilities for ways in which people can behave or think. To me the most obvious sign of that has always been the dependence of human thought on categories.

badmartialarts · Post by **badmartialarts** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 5:56 pm

Arigatomina wrote: With a perfect all seeing god, free will is an illusion.

I've written this out better elsewhere and I keep telling myself I need to go to some real philosophers and make sure my reasoning is valid, but you can have a perfect all seeing God and free will, thanks to quantum mechanics.

I don't want to get too in depth but one of the varieties of quantum mechanical thoery states that the best way to envision any event is that it is the sum total of all possible outcomes of the event, ususally ending up as the most probable of those outcomes but not always. Now, if you posit God to be something outside our known laws and universe, He could see ALL the possible outcomes all at once. Therefore, anything could happen, but nothing would surprise Him. I see our lives as kind of like a Choose-Your-Own-Adventure book, with God as the writer. He doesn't necessarily have to know which page we'll turn to, but he already knows what that page is gonna have on it.

Arigatomina · Post by **Arigatomina** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:53 pm

badmartialarts wrote:I see our lives as kind of like a Choose-Your-Own-Adventure book, with God as the writer. He doesn't necessarily have to know which page we'll turn to, but he already knows what that page is gonna have on it.

That's how I like it. Except in my ideal, he doesn't really care which page we decide to end up on. Most christian religions say he picked one ending, tied all the different "adventures" up so they'd all end up in the same place regardless of their choices along the way. To me that's pointless.

I don't like the way they'll tell me about free will - as if I should be grateful, and happy that he allows us such freedom, rejoice in the freedom. And then in the very next sentence they remind me that I can never question or attempt to understand God's will because what he decides is unchanging and unquestionable because he knows what will be and that's the end of that. Free will in one hand, but if God wants you to do something you're doing it whether you like it or not in the other hand. Like the guy's bipolar or something. Very annoying. ;p