Less AVI Based Codec Support in Premiere CS4?

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Less AVI Based Codec Support in Premiere CS4?

Postby Typhoon859 » Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:58 am

I recently opened a project of mine with various DivX video files that I used with CS3. When it opened in CS4, already one of the files wasn't working at all - unsupported it said. I used DirectShowSource in AVISynth to work that problem out - it correctly replaced the video with the AVS file when I selected it as the substitute. I thought all was well. I opened the project again to export it in a different format. In any case, when the footage finished rendering, there more problems. One 5 minute compilation in there, consisting of only one video source, played at like super-speed. The music was at the normal rate and after the clip was zoomed through, I was left with 3 minutes of blank video until the next video source in the compilation which worked fine. THEN, another video I used, also DivX, was the exact opposite. Instead of the 4 min of stuff I used from it, the film moved at like one frame per second or something, LITERALLY, if not slower... Those are basically the 3 and only 3 AVI files I used in the video that didn't work. I checked in the actual program itself and the issues are the same.

I might've installed something for CS3 that made support for DivX files better - not sure, though all I think I installed was AMVApp. If it was something within AMVApp that was helping then it's probably not working now for CS4, OR, CS4 just supports less. Anybody know if there's a solution/what the problem might be? It would be a pain to replace all the DivX content in my previous projects with AVS counterparts. Thanks.
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Re: Less AVI Based Codec Support in Premiere CS4?

Postby Typhoon859 » Thu Apr 23, 2009 5:42 am

Maybe I should've posted this in the Adobe thread which I didn't notice until now.. Wow.. why doesn't this site have an option to delete your post?... Not even to edit it.
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Re: Less AVI Based Codec Support in Premiere CS4?

Postby Vax » Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:20 am

Could it be? Where I actually used this picture correctly? :|

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It's a link..click it :up:
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Re: Less AVI Based Codec Support in Premiere CS4?

Postby Typhoon859 » Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:02 am

Vax wrote:Could it be? Where I actually used this picture correctly? :|

Quoted Image converted to link:
http://www.aquilinestudios.org/DivX_Editing.html
It's a link..click it :up:



I understand that. My question is basically if there's any plug-in that can be installed that would improve Premiere's support of these files that I might've installed for CS3. Those files worked for CS3 perfectly! That's my point. In Cs4, they have these issues... It doesn't make sense for a newer version to be less efficient at anything. Did it really become even less tolerant of DivX files or is it something different in my configuration? I'm telling you, the last time I opened it was in CS3 right before I uninstalled it and installed CS4. It was perfectly fine in CS3.
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Re: Less AVI Based Codec Support in Premiere CS4?

Postby The Origonal Head Hunter » Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:44 am

DivX and XVid have always been huge gambles for any editing program. Yes, fine, they may have worked perfectly for years for you. That's dumb luck. They are distribution codecs, and were never meant to be edited in. There's nothing to say the next time you opened them in CS3 they'd never work again. Use something lossless (like lagarith or huffyuv), which were actually MADE to be edited with.
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Re: Less AVI Based Codec Support in Premiere CS4?

Postby Typhoon859 » Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:14 pm

The Origonal Head Hunter wrote:DivX and XVid have always been huge gambles for any editing program. Yes, fine, they may have worked perfectly for years for you. That's dumb luck. They are distribution codecs, and were never meant to be edited in. There's nothing to say the next time you opened them in CS3 they'd never work again. Use something lossless (like lagarith or huffyuv), which were actually MADE to be edited with.

Ok.. How many times can that be said over and over? I said I understand that. You're theory that it might've not worked again the next time I would've opened it in CS3 fails. I worked on that clip a lot and have opened it quite a bit of times. In order not to lose quality/not to have terabyte file sizes after converting them with a lossless codec, I decided to directly use the DivX files. THEY WORKED. It's not dumb luck. Those specific files worked. I'm asking why they don't work any more with CS4. Saying that it's a gamble is irrelevant. If you don't know but might have an idea, say so. Don't indirectly call me an idiot and tell me the obvious. I solved the problem with AVISynth (AVISource), but I don't want to have to do that for all my projects that I might've used DivX files for. SO AGAIN, does CS4 work even worse with DivX/XVID?
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Re: Less AVI Based Codec Support in Premiere CS4?

Postby LivingFlame » Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:37 pm

Actually, it's your theory that fails. Just because the file worked once (or more in this case) doesn't mean it has to work again. Welcome to distribution formats.

That said, CS3 ≠ CS4. If it's not working in CS4, then that's that. And there is no miracle method to making DivX/XviD work in an editor. It's total hit and miss. The only ways to make it work for sure are to transcode to lossless, transcode to DV, directly edit an AviSynth script, or frameserve a script into a fake AVI file. The fourth would only be useful for a program that doesn't support directly editing AviSynth scripts, though.

And no, there are no special plugins to make distribution files work in Premiere. That's not what those files are meant for in the first place, so there's no reason for Adobe to try and improve support for them. That would be wasting their time. The target demographic for this software consists primarily of professionals and prosumers who know better than to try stupid things like directly editing distribution files.

If you're that worried about HDD space, you should look into buying a 1.5 TB+ external drive. They're getting a lot cheaper these days - a hell of a lot cheaper than CS4.
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Re: Less AVI Based Codec Support in Premiere CS4?

Postby Typhoon859 » Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:53 pm

LivingFlame wrote:Actually, it's your theory that fails. Just because the file worked once (or more in this case) doesn't mean it has to work again. Welcome to distribution formats.

That said, CS3 ≠ CS4. If it's not working in CS4, then that's that. And there is no miracle method to making DivX/XviD work in an editor. It's total hit and miss. The only ways to make it work for sure are to transcode to lossless, transcode to DV, directly edit an AviSynth script, or frameserve a script into a fake AVI file. The fourth would only be useful for a program that doesn't support directly editing AviSynth scripts, though.

And no, there are no special plugins to make distribution files work in Premiere. That's not what those files are meant for in the first place, so there's no reason for Adobe to try and improve support for them. That would be wasting their time. The target demographic for this software consists primarily of professionals and prosumers who know better than to try stupid things like directly editing distribution files.

If you're that worried about HDD space, you should look into buying a 1.5 TB+ external drive. They're getting a lot cheaper these days - a hell of a lot cheaper than CS4.

Ok, got it. Thanks. There's lots I can say in response to this but I just give up. You just.. ugh, whatever.

No, I'll say this one thing.. Can't leave it unsaid. Guess what you did again. You again listed a bunch of facts (more or less - less in some cases) which I already knew, all of which don't invalidate my question and argument. And yeah, CS4 > CS3. Thanks again.. Sigh...
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Re: Less AVI Based Codec Support in Premiere CS4?

Postby JaddziaDax » Thu Apr 23, 2009 3:33 pm

LivingFlame wrote:And no, there are no special plugins to make distribution files work in Premiere.


I think that answers your question, aside from what you have already found to work (frame serving with avisynth) I don't believe there is a solution...

that is unless you want to make lossless clips. (by taking the time to clip and plan your video more you can actually save hard drive space - also you can always disable the audio - its something I used to do when working on an old 80gb hd.)

I solved the problem with AVISynth (AVISource), but I don't want to have to do that for all my projects that I might've used DivX files for. SO AGAIN, does CS4 work even worse with DivX/XVID?


as to answer your question directly, it probably works the same with divx/xvid compressions as the other version... as in its well known around here that while those compressions may work for some people some of the times, it doesn't work for all people all of the time.

So essentially it is kind of a hit and miss.. and its the same with every editing program as divx and xvid weren't created with editing in mind, but rather sharing/distribution.

and as for your thread being in the wrong place, you can always mod drop box it and ask it to be moved... or wait for it to be moved if a mod notices it.
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Re: Less AVI Based Codec Support in Premiere CS4?

Postby Typhoon859 » Thu Apr 23, 2009 3:44 pm

JaddziaDax wrote:
LivingFlame wrote:And no, there are no special plugins to make distribution files work in Premiere.


I think that answers your question, aside from what you have already found to work (frame serving with avisynth) I don't believe there is a solution...

that is unless you want to make lossless clips. (by taking the time to clip and plan your video more you can actually save hard drive space - also you can always disable the audio - its something I used to do when working on an old 80gb hd.)

I solved the problem with AVISynth (AVISource), but I don't want to have to do that for all my projects that I might've used DivX files for. SO AGAIN, does CS4 work even worse with DivX/XVID?


as to answer your question directly, it probably works the same with divx/xvid compressions as the other version... as in its well known around here that while those compressions may work for some people some of the times, it doesn't work for all people all of the time.

So essentially it is kind of a hit and miss.. and its the same with every editing program as divx and xvid weren't created with editing in mind, but rather sharing/distribution.

and as for your thread being in the wrong place, you can always mod drop box it and ask it to be moved... or wait for it to be moved if a mod notices it.

Sincerely thanks. A bit of the same "DivX/XVID not for editing" but just the right amount of it. Why can't al the answers be normal like that?..

About DivX files being hit and miss, I understand that. But are you trying to say that not only is it hit and miss with different files, but it's hit and miss with the same file on different computers? I don't get how that's possible considering the programming is the same. It's not like once the code for processing the video can be working right and another time working wrong.. It doesn't have any sort of intelligence. If that's what you're saying, I trust your experience since I'm not that all knowing about what's possible errors are possible with programming, but if so, you think you can explain why YOU THINK that could happen. Installation differences maybe? Unexplained inconsistencies bother me; it's what triggered the creation of this thread.

-and uh, about the admins moving the thread, why should I bother them? I don't want to bother them you know?.. They puit extra work on themselves for no reason, like, we can't even delete our own videos that we uploaded.
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Re: Less AVI Based Codec Support in Premiere CS4?

Postby post-it » Thu Apr 23, 2009 4:09 pm

Typhoon859 wrote:..About DivX files being hit and miss, I understand that. But are you trying to say that not only is it hit and miss with different files, but it's hit and miss with the same file on different computers? I don't get how that's possible considering the programming is the same. It's not like once the code for processing the video can be working right and another time working wrong...
.. we are talking about, "video streaming" codec's

Xvid/divX - rm - viv - mpg - mov .. .. these are Streaming Codec's and are set-up for "Quick-Reading"
and not for Editing. ?? why? .. streaming sometimes repeats frames for a balanced playback;
normal video files are sequential. live video is sequential. DVD's are basically sequential.

Most video edits are relying on the movie being 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-... while streaming sometimes
looks more like 1-2-2-3-4-4-5-6-7-7-8-.. .. .. the amount of brightness and sometimes even
the amount of color enrichment often play a major roll in determining the streaming sequence.

just because it plays well does not mean that it is editable! ( MP3's proved that a long time ago! )
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Re: Less AVI Based Codec Support in Premiere CS4?

Postby Typhoon859 » Thu Apr 23, 2009 4:26 pm

post-it wrote:
Typhoon859 wrote:..About DivX files being hit and miss, I understand that. But are you trying to say that not only is it hit and miss with different files, but it's hit and miss with the same file on different computers? I don't get how that's possible considering the programming is the same. It's not like once the code for processing the video can be working right and another time working wrong...
.. we are talking about, "video streaming" codec's

Xvid/divX - rm - viv - mpg - mov .. .. these are Streaming Codec's and are set-up for "Quick-Reading"
and not for Editing. ?? why? .. streaming sometimes repeats frames for a balanced playback;
normal video files are sequential. live video is sequential. DVD's are basically sequential.

Most video edits are relying on the movie being 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-... while streaming sometimes
looks more like 1-2-2-3-4-4-5-6-7-7-8-.. .. .. the amount of brightness and sometimes even
the amount of color enrichment often play a major roll in determining the streaming sequence.

just because it plays well does not mean that it is editable! ( MP3's proved that a long time ago! )

I understand why these type of files have problems. What I don't understand is why the ones that did work don't any more.

BTW, DVD-Video playback is the least stable thing I've seen. Although I know it probably isn't, if you know what I mean, maybe you can explain to me why it appears that way. AVI formats seem to be more stable although they're not and THAT I know why. I don''t why it's the other way around for MPEG-2 streams from DVDs. They're not even properly indexed..
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Re: Less AVI Based Codec Support in Premiere CS4?

Postby Qyot27 » Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:12 am

Typhoon859 wrote:About DivX files being hit and miss, I understand that. But are you trying to say that not only is it hit and miss with different files, but it's hit and miss with the same file on different computers? I don't get how that's possible considering the programming is the same. It's not like once the code for processing the video can be working right and another time working wrong.. It doesn't have any sort of intelligence. If that's what you're saying, I trust your experience since I'm not that all knowing about what's possible errors are possible with programming, but if so, you think you can explain why YOU THINK that could happen. Installation differences maybe? Unexplained inconsistencies bother me; it's what triggered the creation of this thread.

It's a mass of issues. Premiere still has to access VFW to decode the files, AFAIK. So if the particular VFW decoder you have installed is different (say, the normal DivX or XviD decoders vs. ffdshow or whatever), or even if it's the same decoder but a different version number, things can change, things can break, and it might not have anything at all to do with Premiere. The hit and miss with different files is mainly due to the use of the hacked-in B-frames of those codecs, and the P frames might screw with it too. If they were encoded with only keyframes (I frames) then it'd be no different than using MJPEG, but doing that is horribly inefficient for online distribution, at least if you want it to look good.
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Re: Less AVI Based Codec Support in Premiere CS4?

Postby Typhoon859 » Fri Apr 24, 2009 5:37 am

Qyot27 wrote:
Typhoon859 wrote:About DivX files being hit and miss, I understand that. But are you trying to say that not only is it hit and miss with different files, but it's hit and miss with the same file on different computers? I don't get how that's possible considering the programming is the same. It's not like once the code for processing the video can be working right and another time working wrong.. It doesn't have any sort of intelligence. If that's what you're saying, I trust your experience since I'm not that all knowing about what's possible errors are possible with programming, but if so, you think you can explain why YOU THINK that could happen. Installation differences maybe? Unexplained inconsistencies bother me; it's what triggered the creation of this thread.

It's a mass of issues. Premiere still has to access VFW to decode the files, AFAIK. So if the particular VFW decoder you have installed is different (say, the normal DivX or XviD decoders vs. ffdshow or whatever), or even if it's the same decoder but a different version number, things can change, things can break, and it might not have anything at all to do with Premiere. The hit and miss with different files is mainly due to the use of the hacked-in B-frames of those codecs, and the P frames might screw with it too. If they were encoded with only keyframes (I frames) then it'd be no different than using MJPEG, but doing that is horribly inefficient for online distribution, at least if you want it to look good.

Is there a way I can figure out which decoder is being used for Premiere? I have the normal DivX and XVID decoders and FFDShow. For playback normally, FFDShow is always used.
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Re: Less AVI Based Codec Support in Premiere CS4?

Postby Zarxrax » Fri Apr 24, 2009 10:13 am

Adobe software also tends to install some of it's OWN decoders, so even if you have it set up to use ffdshow or whatever, simply by installing premiere, that might make it start decoding with adobe's decoders.
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