Questions about the effects of Avisynth scripts

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Questions about the effects of Avisynth scripts

Postby jediphoenix » Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:05 pm

I'm not sure if this is entirely the correct forum, but it deals mostly with what I'm doing in Avisynth.
I'm currently making an AMV for convention purposes, thus I want it at 720 x 480.

1)Now, when I look at the amv guide talking about Aspect Ratios, it recommends: Crop(8,0,-8,-0) Spline36Resize(640,480). I know that 640x480 is for online distribution, so I assume the guide's recommendation is based on putting it online and not for a convention?

In AvsP, I did the Crop Editor and then Resize Calc to get 704x528 with the lowest % of error. The thing is, I still have to scale it to fit - so is the point of doing the resizing to make sure that once I import the cropped video into Premiere, that it will scale correctly to 720x480? Does that mean it doesn't matter whether I do the recommended way (640x480) or use the Resize Calc myself to get 704x528?

2)After de-interlacing using AMVDeint(mode=1), the guide makes it seem like making it progressive puts it at 23.976fps, but upon opening it in Premiere, it says it's 29.97. Is it supposed to change to 23.976 after de-interlacing, and does it matter given how Premiere can edit in either?


Thank in advance, hope I wasn't too confusing. :|
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Re: Questions about the effects of Avisynth scripts

Postby Scintilla » Sun Mar 14, 2010 12:35 am

I'm going to assume that you're using a 4:3 (fullscreen) source.

jediphoenix wrote:I'm not sure if this is entirely the correct forum, but it deals mostly with what I'm doing in Avisynth.
I'm currently making an AMV for convention purposes, thus I want it at 720 x 480.

1)Now, when I look at the amv guide talking about Aspect Ratios, it recommends: Crop(8,0,-8,-0) Spline36Resize(640,480). I know that 640x480 is for online distribution, so I assume the guide's recommendation is based on putting it online and not for a convention?

Yes. That said, though, there's nothing wrong with editing at 640x480, exporting at 640x480, and then resizing the finished export to 720x480 for the convention version only. Or you could just keep it at 720x480 the whole way (the "Keep DVD Resolution and PAR" option on the aspect ratios page). It's all a matter of your own preference.

jediphoenix wrote:In AvsP, I did the Crop Editor and then Resize Calc to get 704x528 with the lowest % of error. The thing is, I still have to scale it to fit - so is the point of doing the resizing to make sure that once I import the cropped video into Premiere, that it will scale correctly to 720x480? Does that mean it doesn't matter whether I do the recommended way (640x480) or use the Resize Calc myself to get 704x528?

What do you mean, you have to scale it to fit? You can create a Premiere project with whatever resolution you want, and you should be setting it to be equal to the resolution of your source -- there should be no scaling going on.
Also, I don't know why you would want to resize to 704x528. If your goal is to get it to square pixels, it's safer to go the 640x480 route, as then you're only resizing horizontally rather than vertically.

jediphoenix wrote:2)After de-interlacing using AMVDeint(mode=1), the guide makes it seem like making it progressive puts it at 23.976fps, but upon opening it in Premiere, it says it's 29.97. Is it supposed to change to 23.976 after de-interlacing, and does it matter given how Premiere can edit in either?

Deinterlacing alone doesn't reduce the frame rate. You're thinking of inverse telecine (IVTC). The AMVapp contains a separate function for that, AMVIVTC() (more on that here).
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Re: Questions about the effects of Avisynth scripts

Postby jediphoenix » Sun Mar 14, 2010 12:49 am

ah, ok. Much thanks.
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Re: Questions about the effects of Avisynth scripts

Postby jediphoenix » Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:46 am

Sorry, but I have another question about aspect ratios that is still somewhat confusing to me. Currently what I plan to do is leave edit my clips at 720x480. Now, I have very slight black edges as I view then in AvSP, and can get rid of them with the crop editor putting in the Crop(2, 2, -2, -0) puts the ratio at 716x478. Is it therefore a good idea to just add LanczosResize(720,480) after that instead of going into the resize calculator? Or I'm also considering just editing without any cropping and then after exporting my final video from Premiere, going in to AvSP and cropping and then resizing back up to 720x480.
I'm just confused by the resize calculator and the actual point of using it after cropping if I have to have my video at 720X480 (or 640x480, etc), since the resize calculator will give me a weird number like before (704x528).
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Re: Questions about the effects of Avisynth scripts

Postby jediphoenix » Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:00 am

And to add, since the crop tool and resize calculator are mentioned in the post-production page of the guide, I assume it's better to not crop and resize before editing? Thus I would leave all my clips as is (720x480) without cropping, and then after exporting from Premiere would then crop(2,2,-2,0)and resize to 720x480 again?
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Re: Questions about the effects of Avisynth scripts

Postby mirkosp » Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:51 am

Cropping and resizing before or after editing is a choice up to you, really. I personally do it before, Zarxrax and others do it after, either way is fine. As for the calculator, as long as the amount you crop is small (which is true in your case) you don't really need to use it. You can just resize back to 720x480. The AR difference will be minimal, and unless comparing with the original source no one would be able to tell that the aspect ratio isn't 100% correct, and no one would actually care. It starts to become important to use the calculatore when you have bigger numbers like say Crop(16,6,-10,-4). At that point you can use the resize calculator, or you could calculate the AR manually. What I do personally when I need to set the AR perfectly correct, is doing the math to get the DAR, then resize back to 720x480, edit at that, and then flag the AR of the proper DAR. For example, what I had to do with a 16:9 DVD:
Code: Select all
#SAR: 1.500
#DAR: 1.778
#PAR: 1.185
Crop(2, 12, -2, -8)
#SAR: 1.557
#DAR: 1.845
#PAR: 1.185
spline36resize(720,480)
#SAR: 1.500
#DAR: 1.845
#PAR: 1.230

And here to explain:
DAR = PAR * SAR
DAR is the Display Aspect Ratio, the size that the video gets viewed at in playback.
PAR is the Pixel Aspect Ratio, the size that the pixels should be to view the stored image properly. It can also be called Sample Aspect Ratio, as it in fact it specifies the ratio of a sample (a pixel) in the video.
SAR is the Storage Aspect Ratio, the size that the image is stored at when saved. Don't get it mixed up with the Sample Aspect Ratio! :nono:
The first 3 info are the standard info of a 16:9 DVD. When you crop, the DAR and SAR change, but the PAR stays the same. So you can just copy the PAR. Next you can easily calculate the SAR, as all it takes is doing width/height. 720/480 is 1.500, but once cropped I got 716x460, so 716/460 = 1.557 (rounded up, of course). Now that you have both PAR and SAR, you can just do the math above and get the DAR (in this case 1.845).
Next, we resize back to 720x480. Doing this will keep the DAR the same, but will change the SAR and the PAR. Again, the SAR can be easily calculated again, and we know that 720/480 is 1.500. PAR now can be calculated with an inverse function of the one above: PAR = DAR / SAR. So we get 1.230 of PAR.
You keep this info written down, and just edit 720x480. Then, when you encode, you can set the aspect ratio flag. Depending on what you actually use to encode, you might need to specify the PAR or the DAR. x264 asks you for the Sample Aspect Ratio, and we know that it is just another name for the Pixel Aspect Ratio. It asks you for the x:y amounts. The max amount that either x or y can assume here is 250, and you need integer numbers. The number we got before is the X value assuming that the Y is 1 so to get integer numbers, you can just multiply by 1000 and so X:Y would be 1230:1000 in this case. We need to get it under 250, which we can do by simplifying. It's pretty easy in this case, as we can just do /10 on both and get a 123:100, but in other cases it can be harder and you might have to round a bit to get it down. Rounding a bit here and there won't really harm the aspect ratio as long as you keep enough decimals along the way, and 3 is a fair amount, since we're still talking about pixels, which aren't decimal in size. :)
Again, I wrote this up in the case you needed to crop in different amounts between width and height (a lot on one, few in the other, or vice versa). If the cropping amounts are similar, you can just think of it as if the DAR hasn't changed at all, as doing the whole math for a couple pixel difference isn't really worth it for anymore. :wink:
Also, one thing to keep in mind is that some DVDs have an actual area of 704x480, with 8 black pixels on the left and 8 black pixels on the right. In this case, the pixels are just an overscan, and are not meant to be considered for the math. You just crop them, then save your video as 704x480 and set the AR of your need (you can easily pick standard AR to flag in zarxgui from the pulldown box in the Sample Aspect Ratio part). The guide doesn't go over this too well, as it just says to always crop 8 from left and 8 from the right, but this isn't always true: some DVDs have the overscan, others don't. You just need to check the amounts of the black. If you're getting some huge borders all around (ghibli stuff has like 16 pixel every side...) then assume that you have overscan. It can help to crop the overscan, and then start doing the other crops and math at that point, with the SAR calculated from the 704x480.
Hopefully I was able to get it down easy enough, but if all this sounds too confusing... then just disregard, I guess. :P
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Re: Questions about the effects of Avisynth scripts

Postby jediphoenix » Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:54 pm

Well, I think I somewhat understand most of that. :book:
Most of my clips are cropped at the Crop(2, 2, -2, -0), though one or two are at Crop(8, 2, -8, -0), but it doesn't appear to have a noticeable difference once I go back to 720x480.
I'm currently using LanczosResize, though is it better to do Spline36Resize?
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Re: Questions about the effects of Avisynth scripts

Postby Enigma » Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:42 pm

As far as i know it's the same thing, Try both of them.

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Re: Questions about the effects of Avisynth scripts

Postby jediphoenix » Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:23 pm

One thing I'm noticing with some of my clips is that they are 16:9 at a resolution of 848x480. The guide recommends resizing to 640x480. Now this is somewhat frustrating as my other clips are at 720x480. I've tried resizing the 848x480 files to 720x480 and 640x480 and they look slightly squished either way (the 640x480 even moreso). Is there something I'm missing here or will the 16:9 files always look slightly squished, regardless of whether I resize to 720x480 or 640x480?
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Re: Questions about the effects of Avisynth scripts

Postby Scintilla » Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:26 pm

I can't think of a situation in which you would ever want to resize a 16:9 clip to 640x480. 720x480 is fine if ALL of your sources are anamorphic 16:9 and you plan to resize or set AR flags appropriately for distribution, in which case you'll just have to deal with the squishedness during editing.

But, when you say "some of my clips", do you mean that you've also got sources that are 4:3? If so, you need to figure out whether you want your video to be 4:3 or 16:9 and what resolution you want to edit at, and then resize some of the clips accordingly. Here is the EADFAG page that deals with that.
In short, you can't just take 4:3 clips and 16:9 clips and resize them both to the same resolution without doing some major cropping. If some sources look squished but others look fine (or worse, stretched), then you have a problem.

I should mention that, if the version of Premiere you're using is Premiere Pro, then you don't need to crop the sources that you blow up when using this method.
For example, if you want to make your video 4:3 and edit at 640x480 (so square pixels), and you therefore resize all your 16:9 sources up to 848x480, you DON'T need to crop the edges off to get them back to 640x480. This is because Premiere Pro does not resize clips to fit the project resolution unless you tell it to: you can just import the 848x480 clips and use them as is. That way, instead of always losing the leftmost 104 pixels and the rightmost 104 pixels, you can use the Motion effect to move each clip left or right to decide just which part of each scene you want to lose. I used this method myself to work the The End of Evangelion footage into this 4:3 video.
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Re: Questions about the effects of Avisynth scripts

Postby jediphoenix » Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:39 pm

I plan to have all my clips at 4:3. That's why I'm confused, because the guide says to make 16:9 to 640x480.
I had planned to edit at 720x480 since most of my files are that resolution, but now I'm thinking it might just be easier to make all of those at 640x480. Adding in Crop(8,0,-8,-0) Spline36Resize(640,480) as it says in the guide, however, still leaves a slight black bar on top, so I'm unsure if it's ok to continue to crop that out and then keep the resize at 640x480.
Question: You say that by using Premiere Pro, which I will be doing, that I don't need to resize the 848x480 files. Does this hold true if my premiere settings are set to edit at 720x480 as well?
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Re: Questions about the effects of Avisynth scripts

Postby Scintilla » Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:00 pm

jediphoenix wrote:I plan to have all my clips at 4:3. That's why I'm confused, because the guide says to make 16:9 to 640x480.

It says to crop 16:9 sources from 848x480 to 640x480, not resize them down -- a world of difference there. And again, that's only if you're editing with square pixels (a 1.0 PAR).
Doing the crop in AVISynth like this means you always lose the leftmost 104 and rightmost 104 pixels from your 16:9 sources, and in a lot of cases that's probably fine. My tip about Premiere Pro was just a suggestion in case you want more control, or if there are certain scenes that have things happening on one edge or the other of the frame that you don't want to lose.

jediphoenix wrote:Question: You say that by using Premiere Pro, which I will be doing, that I don't need to resize the 848x480 files. Does this hold true if my premiere settings are set to edit at 720x480 as well?

Premiere will still treat them the same way, BUT if you're keeping the 4:3 clips at 720x480 (0.9 PAR) and you want to go this route, then you should be resizing your 16:9 clips up to 960x480 (0.9 PAR) instead of 848x480 (1.0 PAR). The key is to keep the PAR of all your source clips consistent.
(And if you do the fixed crop, follow up the resize with Crop(120,0,-120,0) to get to 720x480.)
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Re: Questions about the effects of Avisynth scripts

Postby Qyot27 » Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:15 pm

Alternately, if you don't want to lose picture information, you can resize to 640x352, which retains a 16:9 aspect ratio*, and then add 64-pixel borders to the top and bottom. Thus you fit a 16:9 image properly inside 640x480. But the video will be switching back and forth from letterboxed to non-letterboxed. Maybe that's ok, maybe it isn't.

*technically, 16:9 = 640x360, but for compression reasons it's better to use multiples of 16. So you're left with either 640x368 or 640x352 - if you want to be anal about it you can resize to 640x360 and then crop 4 pixels from the top and bottom, but nobody really cares/notices anyway. But wait, the borders should also be multiples of 16 so they can be cleanly encoded too. 56 (what the borders would be if you chose 640x368) isn't a multiple of 16, but 64 (which is what you use for 640x352) is.

(note: if this is fitting into a 0.9 PAR/720x480 project, then the 640's would be changed to 720's with no change to the height value - 720x352 instead of 640x352, and so on)




With Scintilla's comments about Premiere Pro in mind, think of Premiere Pro's action area (where the video appears) just like you'd think of the Canvas in Photoshop - an image can be larger than the canvas and moved around to get different parts of the image to fit inside of it. The same action in Premiere Pro would be achieved using the Motion tool to place the video in a different part of the canvas/action area instead of always in the center.
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Re: Questions about the effects of Avisynth scripts

Postby jediphoenix » Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:45 pm

So basically I can either 1) crop my 848x480 files to 640x480, and then crop and resize my 720x480 files to 640x480 or 2)Add LanczosResize(960,480) Crop(120,0,-120,0) to my 848x480 files and keep my other clips at 720x480.

My goal really is to not have to use the resize calculator at all, since it really confuses the hell out of me. Also, if I choose option 1, when I resize and crop my 720x480 files using Crop(8,0,-8,-0) Spline36Resize(640,480), I still get a small black bar on top, which I don't know if I should just manually crop and then use the resize calculator, or just adjust it to crop(8,4,-8,0) slightly and keep Spline36Resize.


Here's what confuses me with the resize calculator for this - if I choose option 1: I manually crop the 720x480 files to get Crop(4, 2, -4, -0). I then check the resize calculator and see this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v195/ ... x/avsp.jpg

Now, these resolutions make it so that it's in multiples of 16 in order to be compatible, correct? So is the resize calculator mainly for after editing, when it's been exported from premiere and ready to be encoded for the net? Otherwise I don't see how using the resize calculator fits in to the picture here when I want to edit it in premiere, because it'll give me some different resolution, like 720x544 for example in the screenshot. Thus this just leads me to want to do option 2 and edit at 720x480.
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Re: Questions about the effects of Avisynth scripts

Postby Qyot27 » Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:07 pm

jediphoenix wrote:My goal really is to not have to use the resize calculator at all, since it really confuses the hell out of me. Also, if I choose option 1, when I resize and crop my 720x480 files using Crop(8,0,-8,-0) Spline36Resize(640,480), I still get a small black bar on top, which I don't know if I should just manually crop and then use the resize calculator, or just adjust it to crop(8,4,-8,0) slightly and keep Spline36Resize.

Then simple: don't use the resize calculator. It's obviously too confusing. I don't (and have never) used the kind of complex script generators that seem to get relied on. Not in VDubMod, not in AvsP, nowhere. Same goes for resize calculators - the closest I get to that are the VDMod_Resize filter for VDub/VDubMod and the Resize function in the newer versions of VDub which has more advanced AR functions built into it. Otherwise, I write all my scripts manually. I always stick to standard resolutions, so I always know what my output is going to be, and therefore can adjust accordingly.

The fact you're getting two different crop values for the same video means the resize calculator is wrong. Don't put blind trust in a software program to do this for you.


Now, these resolutions make it so that it's in multiples of 16 in order to be compatible, correct? So is the resize calculator mainly for after editing, when it's been exported from premiere and ready to be encoded for the net? Otherwise I don't see how using the resize calculator fits in to the picture here when I want to edit it in premiere, because it'll give me some different resolution, like 720x544 for example in the screenshot. Thus this just leads me to want to do option 2 and edit at 720x480.

Resize calculators are meant to preserve aspect ratio. That's it. They aren't meant to stick to using PAL or NTSC standard resolutions, although you can use them for that - if you know how. But more often than not, it's not worth the trouble. You can specify an exact aspect ratio which will then give you the output you need to resize to. Either you define the AR manually and then decide what proportion you want, or you define the AR by the video you've cropped and then decide the proportion. This is where you're getting confused, because once you've cropped the black away from a DVD source, the aspect ratio changes (very little if you're dealing with 4:3, but it changes), and the calculator is basing its calculations on this new aspect ratio. This is why I don't bother.

(And 720x540 is a 4:3 ratio - it is telling you that if you decide to use Square Pixels and a width of 720 pixels, you need to change the height to 540 in order to make the image look correct; 544 is simply the closest multiple of 16 to 540)




So let's start over, way back at the beginning. Try to forget all this confusing stuff the resize calculator is telling you and all this other weirdness.

A PC monitor has Square Pixels. A TV has rectangular pixels. The reason why 720x480 is considered 4:3 with a 0.9 pixel aspect ratio is because of this rectangular pixel issue on TVs - otherwise, 720x480 is actually 3:2, not 4:3; it's the display flagging in the MPEG-2 stream that makes it look correct when played back on a computer or on your DVD player. Square Pixels is considered as a 1.0 PAR, not 0.9. If you multiply 720 (the width) by 0.9, you end up with 648. 640x480 makes more sense when you realize that you aren't supposed to factor in those black bars on the 720x480 image. So if it was, say, 712x480 (i.e. the picture minus the 4-pixel black borders on the right and left, the most common way you'll find them these days), 712x0.9=640.8, which is just rounded down to an even 640*.

Cropping a few pixels off any of the four sides and resizing either back to 720x480 or 640x480 (or 848x480, if you're dealing with 16:9) isn't perceptually a lot, and people usually won't notice. Go ahead and do it.

Any aspect ratio is not intimately tied to a resolution. 4:3 means '4 units wide, 3 units high', 16:9 means '16 units wide, 9 units high'. All it takes to compute the end result of these ratios for any resolution is to have either the desired width, or the desired height. Height is generally what gets used because it determines the resolution standards (720p and 1080p, the HD standard resolutions, mean the images are 720 pixels high or 1080 pixels high; the width is then computed from the height depending on the aspect ratio given; 720p and 1080p are 16:9 resolutions in common parlance, so that means 1280x720 and 1920x1080 - if you divide 1920 by 16 and 1080 by 9 you should come up with the same number...namely, 120 in this case; likewise, 1280/16 and 720/9 both equal 80). You usually use the width value as the determiner when you need to fit a larger image or greater aspect ratio into a smaller one - like trying to fit a 16:9 image into a 4:3 frame or a 2.35:1 image into a 16:9 frame, which is why you have letterboxing in both cases. The width value is made the fit the frame, and then the height is computed from the width using the aspect ratio of the original image.

To use a resize calculator well, you have to think in these terms. This is why it's recommended to make sure all footage you work with is in Square Pixels, because it always looks correct on a PC monitor, which is what one normally uses while editing. Adjusting for the sometimes odd PAR values of the final product is then left for the part of the process immediately needing it (Premiere can use other resolutions than 720x480 while editing; as long as you make Premiere match the resolution of your source files, provided you've worked out these aspect ratio differences beforehand, then you can export properly and then do the necessary adjustments for the final encodes, whether that means hard letterboxing, anamorphic widescreen, or typical 4:3 'fullscreen' content). If you don't want to edit with Square Pixels, then you have to make sure to be constantly aware of what PAR the footage you're using is in, or else you'll get messed up proportions.


In basic terms, Square Pixels always look right on a PC monitor, and you have to either conform to Square Pixels (which means you're looking at a corrected image) or you have to mentally keep track of the difference between your source and Square Pixels. I used to edit at 720x480 and 0.9 PAR when I first started with Premiere, but I switched to only using Square Pixels while editing because I found it easier to follow.

Crop the small borders off entirely; use these values for Crop() in the script. As long as you weren't cropping a ton of pixels off (and no, crop(8,4,-8,0) is not a ton), then resize to 640x480 for Square Pixels or 720x480 for 0.9 PAR. No one will know or care about the difference. To make the 16:9 stuff fit, you can do several things:

A) Crop the files from 848x480 to 640x480 for Square Pixels.
B) Resize from 848x480 to 960x480 and crop to 720x480 for 0.9 PAR.
C) Import the 848x480 files directly into Premiere Pro and use them on the 640x480 Square Pixels project you've created. Premiere will do the cropping. You can adjust the video on the canvas Premiere gives you to do uneven cropping, in case you want to keep some of the picture information on one or the other side (you can do this in AviSynth in point A or B, too, but it takes more work and should be done on a clip-by-clip basis).
D) Resize the 848x480 files to 960x480 and import into Premiere Pro to use with your 720x480 0.9 PAR project. The same stuff I said about moving the video around the canvas in point C applies.


I feel like I'm talking in circles and repeating myself. Aspect Ratio is all about making footage look correct. This is what you should be striving for. To know exactly how to do this, you need to know what it's being displayed on.

If you care about it looking correct during the editing phase, use Square Pixels and 640x480 for 4:3 and 848x480 for 16:9, and make sure that your project settings in Premiere match either 640x480 or 848x480 and use Square Pixels as the PAR (and if you want to mix the two, either crop 848x480 down to 640x480 or move it around the 640x480 canvas in Premiere). After you've exported from Premiere, you can resize the finished product back to 720x480 and encode to MPEG-2 for the convention.

If you only care about the end equipment the convention uses (which would be a TV/DVD player), then use 720x480 for 4:3, 960x480 for 16:9 and have Premiere project settings set to use 720x480 or 960x480 and 0.9 as the PAR (and if you want to mix the two, either crop 960x480 down to 720x480 or move it around the 720x480 canvas in Premiere). After you've exported from Premiere, you can give the video right to the MPEG-2 encoder, since it's already at the right resolution for the TV/convention.



*In the real world, this actually works in reverse - 640x480 is the base because if a signal is 4 units wide by 3 units tall and has a height of 480 pixels, it has a width of 640. The PAR difference of a TV is then factored in and the image is made to conform to TV standards.
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