HDTV editing for AMV's ... Whaaaaaah! ...

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HDTV editing for AMV's ... Whaaaaaah! ...

Postby post-it » Fri May 25, 2007 9:24 pm

:oops: This is a subject I've dreaded ever sence Xvid Codec's were first introduced!

Howdy

I finally bought me a Computer that can capture HD 1366 -- and THAT's where this problem really begins

a) I'm not new to editing ...

b) I'm not up to date on the newest Codec's either ...

after purchasing Primere Pro 3, Magix Pro 11 & Pro 12 Video Editors, I find myself lost ... lost because the Detail and Sharp Clean Captures are washed-way in the Codec's I've tryed. ( and, yes, I've even tryed converting everything Directly to .VOB Files. )

Sooo -- my questions are:

1) is there, or have they made an HD Editor that is simple to use?

2) are there any Codec's which will Shrink the size of the File while Retaining its clearity ( I'm not sure that "clearity" is even a relivent point with lossy encodes. )

... if anyone has any idea's on this problem, I think NOW would be a good time to grasp the Concept that I am currently fighting for I'm becoming confused as to How Many Products claim they can work with HD ( 2480 X 1366 ) Captures yet fail completely once purchased X_X

Normally this question would be asked by the Fan Subbers to other Fan Subbers; however, I'm hoping that ( maybe ) someone knows of a solution that even Fan Subbers might not have tested 8-)

Can You Help ??
( all facts only become real when the question is fully realized. - traxx )

THx
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Postby Orwell » Fri May 25, 2007 9:33 pm

What is it your capturing? Just plain video off a camera, or anime off dvds? If the latter, why are you capturing it?
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Postby Scintilla » Fri May 25, 2007 9:37 pm

Where the hell are you getting source footage that's at 2480x1366?
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Postby post-it » Fri May 25, 2007 9:48 pm

-Orwell-

A few of the LIVE ATSC feeds are starting to carry RAW Anime releases and I'd like to capture and Sub-Title them.

TV-Tokyo, WTBS, NAS series ... blah-blah blah-blah ... their HD is 1366 while we, in the US, are still fighting over 720i and 1080i standards.

it would be nice IF they released a New Series, like they do every year ( in the fall and after xmas ) to be able to bring these series into the Anime Lovers area as clean and sharp as they were when we ( those who like anime ) see them.

To date, only one series is being sent ASTC and NTSC; but I'm quite sure that THAT will change!
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Postby Phantasmagoriat » Sat May 26, 2007 12:55 am

woooohhh-- exciting stuff :twisted:

I thought most HD stuff [we see here anyways] comes as a result of resizing and enhancements [what I did for my last vid], but maybe we'll start seeing more stuff coming from better sources. *crosses fingers*

As for your questions... the largest res I've worked with is 1280x960. But It never occurred to me that one might need a special HD Editor for higher res sources-- so what exactly was the reason the above editors didn't work... I may have to test this in Magix...

As far as codecs go, afaik it's an ongoing struggle with filesize [I use Lagarith, but lately PICVideo's MJPEG trail].
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Re: HDTV editing for AMV's ... Whaaaaaah! ...

Postby Keeper of Hellfire » Sat May 26, 2007 1:11 am

post-it wrote:after purchasing Primere Pro 3, Magix Pro 11 & Pro 12 Video Editors,
Premiere Pro 3? The most recent version is Pro 2, Premiere Elements exist in version 3.

post-it wrote: I'm becoming confused as to How Many Products claim they can work with HD ( 2480 X 1366 ) Captures yet fail completely once purchased X_X
Sounds ridiculous to me. I'd download the trial and test if it works before I'd purchase a program, especially if it's so expensive like Premiere Pro.

Did you ever think about the sense of 2480 X 1366 footage? Nearly no actual display can show this without downscaling, especially no TV-set. Therefore that claim:
post-it wrote:TV-Tokyo, WTBS, NAS series ... blah-blah blah-blah ... their HD is 1366
sounds incredible to me. It's more likely that some stupid fansubbers (or in case of raws: fans) have blown normal SD or HD footage to that size.

The best codec for distribution of such footage is a h.264 codec. But be aware that the filesize still will be huge - 2480 x 1366 has as nearly 10 times as much pixels than 720 x 480.

If you still want to edit with this - look for a program that can work with intermediates, otherwise even a highspeed PC will have problems to handle that stuff.
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Postby post-it » Sat May 26, 2007 5:06 am

if I had a place to upload a 400 meg 5 minute capture for you to look at, I would!
( streamload seems to have some objection to THIS mpeg format ~_~ )

What I do have are some clips I captured durring NBCs Horse Durby a few weeks ago:
... I was just clowning around with the Capture features of my laptop's USB "WinTV-HVR950 NTSC/ATSC HD TV receiver" when -POOOOOF- my home computer actually started to screw-up and threw-itself into Pause-Store MODE.
( actually, I didn't even know the USB Adapter could even do that! it never did it on my laptop so I was not expecting it to do it on my PC either -- if you know what I mean. )
[ Best Buy -- about $59.95 if you would like to try it out yourselves .. hint hint ]

I bring this to your attention, not to be mean, but to let you know that ATSC HD is possibly being tested in your town too ^___^
NBC is jumping all-over this 1080i HD transmittion stuff and if your computer has a 4.6 gig processer ( 3.3gig minimum - trust me on the speeds x_x ) then you can see what I've been seeing and pulling my hair-out with!
(( Virtual Dub MOD hates this MPEG, nothing locks-in .. audio, video size nor timings ~_~ ))
Magix Pro 12 & ( yes, I stand corrected ) Primere 2 Pro (sorry about that ) do not like this MPEG format either!

I was stumbling around with my Extended Dish Networks Package when the HVR950 locked-in on some non-standard ATSC channels being tested on WTBS-Tokyo ... and others -hehe- ... sooo, yes, I am being on the level here.
My current monitor only allows 1440 X 900 and Windows XP does recognize the 16 by 10 size and has corrected everything I work on to THAT aspect ratio. As you can guess, by now, I'm not seeing everything the HD signal has to offer either -- yet it looks a lot better than ANY DVD I've ever seen :shock: including Blue-Ray DVD's which fail miserably to the signals I've seen them sending over there!
The video, when captured, plays in the RECORD MODE section of the softwares panel ... you have GOT to see what it looked-like when they replayed the last two episodes of the Anime I saw in ATSC Mode ^_____^ -- I'm Hooked ^_____^
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Re: HDTV editing for AMV's ... Whaaaaaah! ...

Postby Scintilla » Sat May 26, 2007 7:42 am

Keeper of Hellfire wrote:
post-it wrote:after purchasing Primere Pro 3, Magix Pro 11 & Pro 12 Video Editors,
Premiere Pro 3? The most recent version is Pro 2, Premiere Elements exist in version 3.

Actually, it appears the most recent version is <a href="http://www.adobe.com/products/premiere/">Adobe Premiere Pro CS3</a>.

post-it wrote:NBC is jumping all-over this 1080i HD transmittion stuff and if your computer has a <b>4.6 gig processer ( 3.3gig minimum</b> - trust me on the speeds x_x ) then you can see what I've been seeing and pulling my hair-out with!

They're called "every major desktop CPU architecture since the miserable failure of Intel's Netburst, and that includes AMD Athlon 64 (/X2), Intel Core, and Intel Core 2". Ever heard of them? :?

In fact, if you look at Intel's and AMD's websites, you will not find a single processor from any of the lines I mentioned above that runs at 3.3 GHz or faster.
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Postby Phantasmagoriat » Sat May 26, 2007 2:13 pm

wait.... so if I got ahold of this stuff... I wouldn't even be able to play it... :(
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Postby Zarxrax » Sat May 26, 2007 3:03 pm

For editing HD, its probably a good idea to use the bait-and-switch method. Edit with low-res proxy footage, then replace it with the HD when you export.
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Postby Zero1 » Sun May 27, 2007 6:19 am

A large amount of WTF in this thread.

post-it wrote:I finally bought me a Computer that can capture HD 1366 -- and THAT's where this problem really begins

What is HD 1366? It's certainly something I've never heard of, unless you mean vertical resolution (eg 1366x768).


post-it wrote:after purchasing Primere Pro 3, Magix Pro 11 & Pro 12 Video Editors, I find myself lost ... lost because the Detail and Sharp Clean Captures are washed-way in the Codec's I've tryed. ( and, yes, I've even tryed converting everything Directly to .VOB Files. )

Use a lossless codec like HuffYUV or Lagarith. Failing that, use an editable lossy codec at a high bitrate or constant quantzier mode. FFDShow is accessible via Virtualdub, it has all mentioned encoders. Also what are you doing encoding "HD" to MPEG-2 VOBs? Most encoders that do that will probably have a limit on the bitrate, since VOB is intended for DVD. If you want to use MPEG-2, try Quenc: http://dragongodz2.googlepages.com/home


post-it wrote:Sooo -- my questions are:

1) is there, or have they made an HD Editor that is simple to use?

2) are there any Codec's which will Shrink the size of the File while Retaining its clearity ( I'm not sure that "clearity" is even a relivent point with lossy encodes. )

1) There have been "HD" branded editing applications - some of which may be genuine, but largely I'm sceptical and think that all they did is add a few new preset profiles and slapped HD on the splash screen. I see no reason whatsoever why you can't use Premiere; under the VfW mode you can enter custom resolutions, so simply enter the resolution you are working with.

2) Any codec will do the job, but in varying degrees. For example you can export a very nice looking MPEG-2, if you don't mind the filesize. Likewise there's also MPEG-4 ASP (XviD), which is better, and lastly there is H.264 which gives you the lowest filesizes out of all 3 types. Clarity only really comes into question if you was aiming to create a 50MB HD AMV - because of the difference in efficiency, H.264 will retain the most detail and be least likely to block, whereas ASP would struggle and MPEG-2 would have no chance in hell. If filesize wasn't a consideration, then using Quenc (MPEG-2) at Q2, XviD (ASP) at Q2, or x264 (H.264) at Q18 give you all more or less the same quality, you will see a large discrepency in the filesizes though.


post-it wrote:... if anyone has any idea's on this problem, I think NOW would be a good time to grasp the Concept that I am currently fighting for I'm becoming confused as to How Many Products claim they can work with HD ( 2480 X 1366 ) Captures yet fail completely once purchased X_X

Normally this question would be asked by the Fan Subbers to other Fan Subbers; however, I'm hoping that ( maybe ) someone knows of a solution that even Fan Subbers might not have tested 8-)

I'd like to see these "HD" captures, or the software and hardware than can generate them; because a) it's a bastard aspect ratio, and b) it's not mod16. In a capture card I expect it to obey mod16; and I think it would be common sense for it to support common aspect ratios. Perhaps what you were "sold" and what you "got" are two different things?

Also for what it's worth, I'm a fansubber; or was a fansubber (it's irrelevant, what is relevant is that I'm pretty much still an enthusiast encoder). A lot, if not most fansub encoders don't even know the basics about video like mod16 and such; so don't fall into the trap of thinking they are the holy grail of encoders - I've seen better encodes from AMV editors on a regular basis; and that's saying something considering encoding is pretty much secondary to the AMV. Also for this kind of question, you are more likely to get a helpful response from fellow AMV editors rather than fansubbers, because fansubbers do not use non linear editors much (if at all; AVISynth excluded).


Scintilla wrote:Where the hell are you getting source footage that's at 2480x1366?

Seconded.


post-it wrote:A few of the LIVE ATSC feeds are starting to carry RAW Anime releases and I'd like to capture and Sub-Title them.

TV-Tokyo, WTBS, NAS series ... blah-blah blah-blah ... their HD is 1366 while we, in the US, are still fighting over 720i and 1080i standards.

Maybe now I'm just being pedantic; but Japan uses ISDB-T, not ATSC. ATSC is what America uses. The main difference is they use different modulation, and audio codecs (America uses AC3, and Japan uses AAC). I believe America uses H.264 + MPEG-2; though I'm not sure what Japan uses, I have a hunch it's MPEG-2 only.
Also Japan's HDTV is not 1366. It's 720p and 1080i, just like the rest of the world (and I have MPEG-2 streamdumps if you doubt me). Even if I was to completely grab at straws and say you were talking about the old analog HDTV, that still doesn't fit. Analog HDTV had 1125 lines, 1035 of those which carried an active picture (it's the same deal as NTSC being 525 line but only 480-486 of them containing an image, or PAL being 625 and having 576 active lines).

Furthermore, there is no such thing as 720i, it's 720p only. TV-Tokyo operates at 1080i. This screenshot somewhat shows that because you can see jaggies cause by interlacing (since it's basically half the resolution, ie 544 fields). The image should actually be 1920x1088 because interlacing requires mod32 resolutions, however this screenshot is 1920x1080; if you look carefully along the bottom few lines, you can see where the 8 lines of black start (in this case it would have been more than 8 lines, but that's not important), which works in a similar way to DVD, to pad 704 samples to 720.
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Don't ask me what this is; it's not something I captured, I just found this image on the net some time ago.


Phantasmagoriat wrote:I thought most HD stuff [we see here anyways] comes as a result of resizing and enhancements [what I did for my last vid], but maybe we'll start seeing more stuff coming from better sources. *crosses fingers*

Most of it is, in fact I wager that there are very few genuine HD AMVs. You see when I was fansubbing I was encoding and raw finding. A lot of the stuff on Japanese P2P is upscaled. The Japanese raw cappers have this strange thing about upscaling their releases, we commonly think it's just an e-penis thing, you know the biggest resolution gets the most downloads. Unfortunately Joe Average finds a "HD" raw on an English torrent site and thinks, "Great, HD AMV time", but it's usually just an upscale.

There are a few ways to tell upscales:
1) Look at the image. Is it sharp? Compare it with a series you know is really HD. Check out some .hack//Roots raws; those are true 720p.

2) If you suspect upscaling, look at the image. Do you see halos around outlines? Halos are created by resizing algorithms such as Bicubic and Lanczos. Do the lines look inconsistantly sharp or too thin? awarpsharp is a commonly used sharpening filter on the raws scene, and since it's adaptive, some lines are inconsistant in their thickness. Even the same line can vary in thickness and give it a wobbly or crumpled effect.

3) Any interlacing artifacts? 720p is meant to be progressive only, so if you spot interlacing in a 720p raw, you probably have an upscale. Check the thickness of the fields; are they one pixel thick, or is it inconsistant or blurred? Since 480>720 is 1.5x, fields will not scale nicely and get blurred by the resizing algorithm.

4) Check the resolution. 1080p is not broadcasted at all since it requires too much bandwith and power to decode, only 720p and 1080i are broadcasted. If you find a 1080p raw and it doesn't claim to be a HD-DVD or Bluray rip (or it simply says it's a TV rip or it has the channel watermark), then you've been had. 1080i will actually be 1088 lines, with the bottom 8 lines usually being black as described above, however this isn't 100% foolproof because a capper will likely crop the 8 blank lines (again, I come back to not knowing the basics about mod16/mod32 etc.) and in H.264 streams, it's possible to encode 1088 lines and specify to hide the other 8 lines.


post-it wrote:if I had a place to upload a 400 meg 5 minute capture for you to look at, I would!
( streamload seems to have some objection to THIS mpeg format ~_~ )

By all means. Make it available for me, and I'll have it working in almost any program. You probably just need a TS splitter or a non whack MPEG-2 decoder.
http://www.megaupload.com/
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Postby post-it » Sun May 27, 2007 8:25 am

Zero1 wrote: Make it available for me, and I'll have it working in almost any program. You probably just need a TS splitter or a non whack MPEG-2 decoder.
http://www.megaupload.com/


umm, I've never used this service before; it says "an Email address to send to" ?

a link to this page would actually be more useful ^__^ ... I've got a 95meg mpg standing-by to upload and my account just got confirmed.

kindly fill in the Directions on how this should be done - please 8-)
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Postby Zero1 » Sun May 27, 2007 1:33 pm

Go to the site at http://www.megaupload.com/

Look for the megaupload logo, to the right of it there is a text entry field and a browse button. Hit browse and locate the file, it will then begin uploading. There's no need to enter anything else because that information is optional.
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Postby Zero1 » Sun May 27, 2007 1:34 pm

I forgot to add that under the browse button, when you've added it, you need to tick agree and hit send
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Re: HDTV editing for AMV's ... Whaaaaaah! ...

Postby Keeper of Hellfire » Mon May 28, 2007 5:23 am

Scintilla wrote:
Keeper of Hellfire wrote:Actually, it appears the most recent version is <a href="http://www.adobe.com/products/premiere/">Adobe Premiere Pro CS3</a>.
It says you can preorder it, which means it isn't available at the moment. So it's the future version, and Pro 2 is still the most recent version. Of course, that 'll change within a few weeks (or days).
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