"Ghosting" in PAL Rips

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"Ghosting" in PAL Rips

Postby Raggedstar » Wed Jan 15, 2014 5:58 pm

Well now, about a decade on a-m-v.org, nearly 8 years making and uploading AMVs, and I make my first post now? I guess better time as any.

So, encoding and capturing aren't my strengths. I've read through many forums and guides (including ones on this site) and ultimately can't find a solution that makes things ANY better for my DVD rips. I want to eliminate the chance that I'm just a stupid person fiddling with things I don't understand and instead reach out to people who may know what they're talking about and work things out more personally.

I imported Ginga Densetsu Weed (no laughing, please) DVDs from Denmark. To the furthest of my understanding, these are legitimate DVDs (I have a friend who also received the same DVDs from a friend in Denmark). When I rip them, I get a "ghosted" frames in movement. This is unrelated to the file type or codec and will even show up if you go frame-by-frame in any ripper or Virtualdub. All settings consider the different frame rate cross-region. No de-interlacing option within Sony Vegas 11 or the smart de-interlacing filter in Virtualdubmod will make any improvement. I have downloaded AMVapp and therefore have Virtualdubmod, AVIsynth, and the lot and have experimented with various scripts I've scraped up from guides and forum posts (whether or not used "properly" is up in the air).

Here is a 1 minute clip straight from the ripper

Sample Picture (from 0:33, a good example where the character on the left is turning his head)

While I know the general rule of thumb is that you're out of luck with PAL DVDs (I live in Canada, so this only became a problem now) I do want to know if there's anything decent I can salvage for editing. As far as I know, the series and franchise doesn't have any NTSC DVD releases outside Japan, and the Japanese DVDs are pretty rare and expensive. $300+ sometimes for the entire 26 episode series if you can find it, as it might be out of print (for obvious reasons if you know the show) and certain episodes in 2 ep DVDs are available on Amazon.com for $15-$30 each. The franchise since the 80s has had a following in Northern Europe, hence the Danish DVDs.

So if anyone can help me out, that would be great. I understand this may be a common problem inherited by the region that may not be fixable, but it's worth getting an opinion before I give up entirely.

Thanks
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Re: "Ghosting" in PAL Rips

Postby l33tmeatwad » Thu Jan 16, 2014 7:32 am

To be able to accurately help you we will need to see the information from DGIndex and the AviSynth script you are using to rip them.
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Re: "Ghosting" in PAL Rips

Postby Raggedstar » Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:40 pm

What information from DGIndex do you need? I did find this when looking at the untouched VOB file:

Aspect Ratio: 4:3
Frame Size: 720 x 576
Profile: Main@main
Frame Rate: 25
Video Type: PAL
Frame Type: Interlaced
Frame Struct: Frame
Field Order: Top

As for AVIsynth I haven't created any videos with scripts, only looking through Virtualdubmod's output preview. The video in the link has nothing done to it outside of a typical rip (might be Xvid codec). I can create one if you like as an example.
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Re: "Ghosting" in PAL Rips

Postby l33tmeatwad » Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:11 pm

Considering that video is 1024x768 @ 29.969fps there are some alternations done. You can follow this guide to see how to handle writing an AviSynth script, however since your DVD is PAL you will need to change "tdecimate()" to "tdecimate(cycle=25)" in your script to avoid causing the framerate to be irregular. Repost if you are still seeing the issue after trying this method. I also recommend using the latest VirtualDub instead of a mod version.
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Re: "Ghosting" in PAL Rips

Postby Raggedstar » Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:48 pm

Huh, I must've uploaded one of my experimental rips. Sorry about that.

Anyways, thanks for the link. I was obviously missing something. Followed that guide, and got a test video.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/brwr5b

Script:
MPEG2Source("C:\D_[DVDVolume]\VTS_01_1.d2v")
tdecimate(cycle=25)

(no filters, Xvid compression)

No audio, but not a huge concern. I also got an updated DGIndex and some information is now slightly different. I'll repost in case it changes things.

Aspect Ratio: 4:3 [2]
Frame Size: 720 x 576
Profile: Main@main
Frame Rate: 25
Video Type: PAL
Sequence: Field/Frame
Frame Type: Interlaced
Frame Struct: Frame
Field Order: Top
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Re: "Ghosting" in PAL Rips

Postby l33tmeatwad » Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:51 pm

Raggedstar wrote:Huh, I must've uploaded one of my experimental rips. Sorry about that.

Anyways, thanks for the link. I was obviously missing something. Followed that guide, and got a test video.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/brwr5b

Script:
MPEG2Source("C:\D_[DVDVolume]\VTS_01_1.d2v")
tdecimate(cycle=25)

(no filters, Xvid compression)

No audio, but not a huge concern. I also got an updated DGIndex and some information is now slightly different. I'll repost in case it changes things.

Aspect Ratio: 4:3 [2]
Frame Size: 720 x 576
Profile: Main@main
Frame Rate: 25
Video Type: PAL
Sequence: Field/Frame
Frame Type: Interlaced
Frame Struct: Frame
Field Order: Top

You left out interlace removal...should be:
Code: Select all
Script:
MPEG2Source("C:\D_[DVDVolume]\VTS_01_1.d2v")
tfm()
tdecimate(cycle=25)


After looking at that AVI, that should fix your issues.
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Re: "Ghosting" in PAL Rips

Postby Raggedstar » Sat Jan 18, 2014 3:27 pm

Aye, the interlacing is better with that script. No banding. Though there's still some problems with the "ghost" frames during movement (like in the image in my original post). Are those able to be fixed?
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Re: "Ghosting" in PAL Rips

Postby l33tmeatwad » Sat Jan 18, 2014 3:44 pm

First off, that is NOT called ghosting, it's field blending. Second, you are causing that to happen when you blend the fields together (like when you use a "deinterlacing" filter which basically just blends the fields together). Simply run the script I provided, it should remove the interlacing and decimate the frames down to what it needs to be. If you still have interlaced frames slipping through try decreasing the cthresh on tfm (ex. tfm(cthresh=5) or lower, this may cause combing noise so be careful).
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Re: "Ghosting" in PAL Rips

Postby Raggedstar » Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:28 pm

I apologize for the mix-up. At least I have a name for this issue now (which helps a lot, now that I think about it).

Tried that and experimented with different values, but didn't get any noticeable improvement.

I also re-tried this script on the entry of field blending in the "Making your footage Progressive" guide for a lark (for some reason it didn't help before) and got some surprising progress. It isn't perfect, but I don't know if I could ever get "perfect" with these DVDs. There's a tad decrease of quality in areas, but the movement is better and the blending is less obvious. For good measure I also tossed it into Vegas (my main editing program) and it looked decent. Huh... so yay?

Script on that page was:

TDeint(mode=1)
Srestore()

(I can provide an upload if you like)
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Re: "Ghosting" in PAL Rips

Postby l33tmeatwad » Mon Jan 20, 2014 12:55 am

No need, as long as you got it working that's fine. PAL is a bit more tricky, I really need to get some PAL DVDs to work on testing with so I can be better help to those users with PAL footage.
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Re: "Ghosting" in PAL Rips

Postby mirkosp » Mon Jan 20, 2014 4:28 pm

PAL footage is most commonly blended in-source. Unblending it is almost always impossible, but if doable, requires frame by frame difference weighting between a clean and a blended frame; the results aren't perfect and it's only half decent if there are enough clean frames and there aren't many compression artefacts, which due to the amount of episodes per dvd in PAL releases is rarely the case.

So scratching that solution, the least bad approach you have to deal with a field blended source (even if it's NTSC and not PAL) that can't be unblended in semi-automatic and feasible manners is to simply bob to the field rate, possibly with a high quality bobber (look into qtgmc) and then edit with the field rate as the frame rate, which in the case of PAL it means you should edit at 50fps.
This way, with the fast playback speed, the blending will be less noticeable in most scenes, since the single frames are running by so fast.

Doing a simple deinterlace at 25fps or trying to go 24 will only get you with more visible blending and possibly motion stutter as well, unless you feel like manually unblending the frames one way or the other ─ in the worst and most common cases, this mean opening up photoshop and redrawing large chunks of the source; I don't suggest going down this route.
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Re: "Ghosting" in PAL Rips

Postby l33tmeatwad » Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:44 pm

@mirkosp Just fyi, if you didn't look at his second upload, the video was not actually blended, it was interlaced and was getting blended in his original ripping process.
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Re: "Ghosting" in PAL Rips

Postby mirkosp » Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:14 am

Do a separatefields() and check the single fields (I suggest doing an assumetff() first) on the second upload. It's field blended.
Then again with the fades and overlays, it takes a bit to make sure, when there's the pan with the dogs.
Some clean fields are there, but not all fields are clean. Could very well be some lossy re-encode mess, though.

An actual m2v split would be an optimal sample to make 100% sure it isn't a re-encode issue.
From dgindex, use [ and ] to cut a bit and then do "Save Project and Demux Video," then you'll get a m2v file to share. A pan with no fades, like the one with the dogs I mentioned above, would be optimal to tell if it's field blended or not.

I'm quite positive it's going to be field blended, though. Euro pulldown PAL is almost always soft pulldown, when there weren't vfr things to deal with in the original sources, which means that the report would look different than what he posted. But euro pulldown PAL is rare. Speedup is more common than pulldown, and with speedup I mean 24p->25p speedup, which isn't the case. Never seen a 60i -> 50i slowdown ever done, either blending, or ivtc->pulldown, or a mix in case of vfr (I've seen mocomp done as well, but that's even less common).
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Re: "Ghosting" in PAL Rips

Postby l33tmeatwad » Tue Jan 21, 2014 7:51 am

mirkosp wrote:I'm quite positive it's going to be field blended, though.
The frame he points out in the original as being blended is an interlaced frame in the second video example he posted...but yeah, a raw example would probably be the easiest way to figure it out.
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Re: "Ghosting" in PAL Rips

Postby mirkosp » Tue Jan 21, 2014 2:47 pm

It is interlaced, but you have to look at the single fields. Here's the sequence of 3 fields in that place, taken from the avi he shared later on:

Image

Image

Image

They are fields 1425, 1426, and 1427 when doing assumetff().separatefields(), and as you can see the second one is fully blended, while the third shows a blended chroma. Like I said, could be some derpiness from the lossy re-encode (quite possible and dare I say most likely for the chroma issue in the third screenshot, but I'm not too convinced about the second one), and to make 100% sure we need the m2v, but having worked with countless PAL sources, my gut feeling says it's field blended to begin with.
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