Evangelion Episode 23 Director's Cut proves the following...

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Postby CaTaClYsM » Sat Feb 21, 2004 3:19 am

Here we go...
So in other words, one part of the community is waging war on another part of the community because they take their community seriously enough to want to do so. Then they tell the powerless side to get over the loss cause it's just an online community. I'm glad people make so much sense." -- Tab
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Postby UncleMilo » Sat Feb 21, 2004 3:43 pm

Oh... I saw that people were asking about the EVAs...

It was established that the EVAs had computer brains that were the same "model" as the MAGI computers. That the computer brains had human imprints to function.

EVA 00 and EVA 02 had computer imprints of Ritsuko's mother and Asuka's mother respectively.

EVA 01 is different, because it has the actual soul and essence of Shinji's mother, Yui.

They mention how only one other person was ever turned to LCL before Shinji... and process of elimination leads you to know that it was Yui who was turned into LCL and absorbed into Unit 01.

If there's any doubt that Ritsuko's mother is the imprint for Unit 00, just look what it does when it goes beserk... taping into the base animal, of course.

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Postby Zarxrax » Sat Feb 21, 2004 3:54 pm

UncleMilo wrote:Oh... I saw that people were asking about the EVAs...

It was established that the EVAs had computer brains that were the same "model" as the MAGI computers. That the computer brains had human imprints to function.

EVA 00 and EVA 02 had computer imprints of Ritsuko's mother and Asuka's mother respectively.

EVA 01 is different, because it has the actual soul and essence of Shinji's mother, Yui.

They mention how only one other person was ever turned to LCL before Shinji... and process of elimination leads you to know that it was Yui who was turned into LCL and absorbed into Unit 01.

If there's any doubt that Ritsuko's mother is the imprint for Unit 00, just look what it does when it goes beserk... taping into the base animal, of course.

-Uncle Milo


Do you have any proof for ANY of this?

The way unit 00 acts does not prove anything regarding that it may have Naoko's brain imprint inside it. It has been speculated that Unit-00 simply wanted to help Rei. Rei did not want to live. It tried to kill her (first berserk ). Having failed, it decided to rage against what was causing Rei pain (2nd berserk).
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Postby Daio Kaji » Thu Feb 26, 2004 1:51 pm

Zarxrax wrote:
UncleMilo wrote:Oh... I saw that people were asking about the EVAs...

It was established that the EVAs had computer brains that were the same "model" as the MAGI computers. That the computer brains had human imprints to function.

EVA 00 and EVA 02 had computer imprints of Ritsuko's mother and Asuka's mother respectively.

EVA 01 is different, because it has the actual soul and essence of Shinji's mother, Yui.

They mention how only one other person was ever turned to LCL before Shinji... and process of elimination leads you to know that it was Yui who was turned into LCL and absorbed into Unit 01.

If there's any doubt that Ritsuko's mother is the imprint for Unit 00, just look what it does when it goes beserk... taping into the base animal, of course.

-Uncle Milo


Do you have any proof for ANY of this?

The way unit 00 acts does not prove anything regarding that it may have Naoko's brain imprint inside it. It has been speculated that Unit-00 simply wanted to help Rei. Rei did not want to live. It tried to kill her (first berserk ). Having failed, it decided to rage against what was causing Rei pain (2nd berserk).

i'm glad someone said it, it took so long to read this entire thread, posting now is gonna suk! :? but then again it's my fav anime, so :D

The soul that is imprinted into Eva Unit 00 imo is Rei's
i can see how people would believe it was Naoko's, because of the fact that Unit 00 goes berserk, it can be seen that Naoko is acting out and trying to kill Rei who resembled Yui which both of these stole Gendo away from Naoko, so Naoko wanted to kill them both

BUT! how is it that Rei would be able to syncronize with Naoko's soul... i just don't see it happening with their history, there is too much hatred on Naoko's part

Unit 00 having Rei's soul can be seen because of the fact that Rei is a very lonely individual, she says herself that she wants to die, but gendo won't let you (SHE SAYS THIS HERSELF DURING INSTRUMENTALITY FOR YOU QUOTE-FIENDS) so she would want to kill herself to free herself from gendo, and she would also want to destroy the individual that is keeping her captive in a sense

Rei's origins most logically to me seem to be that she was created AFTER Yui died, Rei's entire purpose is a tool to re-unite Gendo with Yui, so there is NO reason for her to even exist if Yui is still alive, so she was engineered AFTER Yui died, her body is NOT the salvaged remains of Yui, because Yui was turned into LCL and absorbed by Eva Unit 01, thus Rei's personality is only an imitation of Yui's (rei reminds shinji of a mother at times, AND at one point in the series, rei tells shinji "well... that's good for you." and it OBVIOUSLY is one of the few memories that shinji has of his mother, therefore part of Rei IS Yui, but her body and soul are that of Lillith for the following reasons:
1- it was already said in this thread that those that are made from adam must return to adam even though it would cause destruction and destroy the human race, the same is true for lillith, so when Rei returns to Lillith, it doesn't matter WHO says it, the fact is the worlds 'Welcome Home' show on the screen and Rei returns to her origins, thereby completing Lillith by reuniting Lillith with her removed soul and triggering one of the key components to instrumentality.
2- because the evas are made from an angel (lillith), Rei is able to syncronize with the evas successfully for the same reason kaworu could, because they are made of the same material, of course this syncronization can ONLY happen if the soul inside the eva will ALLOW such a syncronization, therefore Yui didn't let Rei sync with her inside unit 01 that time against Zerael (sp?-that angel unit 01 eats) and it also wouldn't let the dummy plug sync either, Yui would only ALLOW shinji to pilot because she was still shinji's mother, and she only wanted to protect him with the eva
.... i know i went into a lot of other stuff, but there is a lot of stuff i want to cover

YES, i know that the eva's 00-02 are modeled after lillith's first 3 children, but that does not mean that they were made using parts from Lillith, the material makeup of the evas can only be known through content discussed in the show, so...
Keel (during EoE)- we must proceed using lillith's only true offspring, evangelion unit 01
thus, eva 01's origins are with Lillith
Kaworu (as he activates eva unit 02)- let us go, adam's dark shadow, servant of the lilim
thus, eva 02's origins are with Adam, he is a shadow, in other words, a clone, and he is a servant of the lilim, i shouldn't have to explain that one
As for unit 00, this is where we would have to assume that it was made from Adam, because it is still said that Unit 01 is Lillith's ONLY true offspring

Second Impact
from what i've seen and read (including interviews), it happened in 2000, although the actual results were manufactered, it does not mean the intend was entirely human, i think that Adam was sent to judge mankind and basically kill all of us, but at that point, we had the lance/spear of longinus (sidenote-although some translations are no big deal, some can be insulting in a way, you wouldn't call the Holy Grail, the Holy Mug would you?, so i think we should stay with the traditional Spear of Longinus) so what we (humans) did was use the only instrument capable of killing a god to stop adam from continuing his killing spree, so we stuck in the spear and then that minimized the damage done, so only Antarctica was destroyed entirely, though this still cause widespread flooding. And with the release of all the energy Adam had already released, to survive, he had to reduce himself to an embroynic state, and then he just fell into the ocean to be later recovered and transported to Germany, then Tokyo-3.

it's true that SI destroyed everything down to whatever molecular level, but that doesn't mean that Adam destroyed himself, he survived because he was the source of the destruction, and as for Misato, her little pod was wayyy out on the ocean, so because of the DISTANT view that she had of SI, she was blown out to sea, outside of the explosive range of SI

as for the religious references, some people should realize that things are not happening according to or in reference to the CHRISTIAN BIBLE, it is the Kaballist religion that is being tapped into, just thought i should point this out, some people were making big arguments about stating true to the source of reference, but they themselves had the wrong reference, so i hope this helps

-and about the topic of Kaworu/Dummy Plugs/Clones-
Nerv was not involved in the creation of Kaworu, Seele was, and because Seele was also in charge of the production of the rest of the eva series, it stands to be true that although Dr. Ritsuko Akagi was the one behind the dummy plugs, information on their creation and on Rei's creation was leaked (intelligence was never good at keeping things under raps) so Seele found a way to create the last angel, Kaworu, and also made dummy plug copies of him to use in the rest of the eva series, therefore since the rest of the eva series did NOT have a soul inside any of them, Kaworu's Dummy Plug equivalents were easily able to control them, though because they are not truely kaworu, they don't work on their own agenda, they work for Seele, another good reason why Seele would send Kaworu away, eh wouldn't work for anyone but himself and any devine power from which he originates

and so people know Dummy Plugs do not equal clones
what shinji had with him in his entry plug against eva unit 03 was NOT clone, there was no physical body, it was a badly imitated digital equivalent of a soul/personality

clones have only existed of Rei, and i guess in essense, of Yui, since Rei is modeled after Yui, but the clones i think do NOT share the same soul as any of their predesesors, i think they all obtain their OWN personalities in addition to extremely vague memories of the previous clone used, proof?

Rei #1 (assumed to be the one Naoko killed)- she is with Gendo ever since her creation, she does NOT act like the future Rei's, if you ask me, she acts an aweful lot like GENDO himself, her mischievious smile when she calls Naoko an 'old hag' prove this, she is almost as cunning and manipulative as Gendo himself, but she is too small and weak to defend herself so she died/was killed
Rei #2- i think Gendo sees where he went wrong with the first Rei so he isolates himself a bit more from Rei, although they still have contact, he does not influence her the same as the first one, thus Rei #2 is a lot more concerned with being accepted because of the way she is pushed away, and this leads to the slightly caring Rei who gives herself up so that she can free herself from Gendo through death by sacrificing herself knowing she is nothing original, she can be replaced, a fate too horrible to bear, she decided to end her life
Rei #3- has most of the feelings and emotions that Rei #2 went through, so she has enough to go on where she can remember the love she felt for Shinji and decides to go help him instead of staying with Gendo in EoE

that's all i'm putting for now, i need to go back and dig inside of this topic and see what i missed
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Postby Tab. » Thu Feb 26, 2004 3:41 pm

Daio Kaji wrote:Second Impact
from what i've seen and read (including interviews), it happened in 2000, although the actual results were manufactered, it does not mean the intend was entirely human, i think that Adam was sent to judge mankind and basically kill all of us, but at that point, we had the lance/spear of longinus (sidenote-although some translations are no big deal, some can be insulting in a way, you wouldn't call the Holy Grail, the Holy Mug would you?, so i think we should stay with the traditional Spear of Longinus) so what we (humans) did was use the only instrument capable of killing a god to stop adam from continuing his killing spree, so we stuck in the spear and then that minimized the damage done, so only Antarctica was destroyed entirely, though this still cause widespread flooding. And with the release of all the energy Adam had already released, to survive, he had to reduce himself to an embroynic state, and then he just fell into the ocean to be later recovered and transported to Germany, then Tokyo-3.

it's true that SI destroyed everything down to whatever molecular level, but that doesn't mean that Adam destroyed himself, he survived because he was the source of the destruction, and as for Misato, her little pod was wayyy out on the ocean, so because of the DISTANT view that she had of SI, she was blown out to sea, outside of the explosive range of SI

as for the religious references, some people should realize that things are not happening according to or in reference to the CHRISTIAN BIBLE, it is the Kaballist religion that is being tapped into, just thought i should point this out, some people were making big arguments about stating true to the source of reference, but they themselves had the wrong reference, so i hope this helps


Your above two points are pretty contradictory. Your beliefs about Adam 'judging' and being sent by whomever are completely against any kind of Kabbalistic thought. That sort of master-slave thing is predominant in exoteric Hebraic and Christian tradition.
It's made relatively clear that the awakened condition of Adam combined with the awakening of the other angels spelt certain doom for humanity, and so Adam's DNA was extracted and the rest was destroyed. It's not about judging and killing humanity, it's about toying with things that don't belong in the hands of man and the dangers inherent in that.
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Postby Daio Kaji » Thu Feb 26, 2004 3:54 pm

Tab. wrote:
Daio Kaji wrote:Second Impact
from what i've seen and read (including interviews), it happened in 2000, although the actual results were manufactered, it does not mean the intend was entirely human, i think that Adam was sent to judge mankind and basically kill all of us, but at that point, we had the lance/spear of longinus (sidenote-although some translations are no big deal, some can be insulting in a way, you wouldn't call the Holy Grail, the Holy Mug would you?, so i think we should stay with the traditional Spear of Longinus) so what we (humans) did was use the only instrument capable of killing a god to stop adam from continuing his killing spree, so we stuck in the spear and then that minimized the damage done, so only Antarctica was destroyed entirely, though this still cause widespread flooding. And with the release of all the energy Adam had already released, to survive, he had to reduce himself to an embroynic state, and then he just fell into the ocean to be later recovered and transported to Germany, then Tokyo-3.

it's true that SI destroyed everything down to whatever molecular level, but that doesn't mean that Adam destroyed himself, he survived because he was the source of the destruction, and as for Misato, her little pod was wayyy out on the ocean, so because of the DISTANT view that she had of SI, she was blown out to sea, outside of the explosive range of SI

as for the religious references, some people should realize that things are not happening according to or in reference to the CHRISTIAN BIBLE, it is the Kaballist religion that is being tapped into, just thought i should point this out, some people were making big arguments about stating true to the source of reference, but they themselves had the wrong reference, so i hope this helps


Your above two points are pretty contradictory. Your beliefs about Adam 'judging' and being sent by whomever are completely against any kind of Kabbalistic thought. That sort of master-slave thing is predominant in exoteric Hebraic and Christian tradition.
It's made relatively clear that the awakened condition of Adam combined with the awakening of the other angels spelt certain doom for humanity, and so Adam's DNA was extracted and the rest was destroyed. It's not about judging and killing humanity, it's about toying with things that don't belong in the hands of man and the dangers inherent in that.

okay, my bad, i knew there had to have been something i'd f up on and someone would point it out, but i told feel strongly about that SI theory i came up with, but i didn't believe he was 'judging' humanity, that was just bad word choice on my part :(
i do however agree that man was toying with something he wasn't suppose to, but you don't go much into depth about the specifics of what happened during SI urself, it's already fact from the show itself that second impact was caused by experimentaly basically stabbing adam with the spear of longinus, would you mind going further, you seem to have a nice grasp of Second Impact yourself, it's still one of the fuzzy subjects for me

so i'm guessing the rest of my gi-normous post was a-okay! :wink:
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Postby Zarxrax » Thu Feb 26, 2004 4:33 pm

Daio Kaji wrote:her body is NOT the salvaged remains of Yui, because Yui was turned into LCL and absorbed by Eva Unit 01


Sorry, but she was. It's stated in the red cross book, which is canon. You can't really dispute it.
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Postby Daio Kaji » Thu Feb 26, 2004 5:37 pm

Zarxrax wrote:
Daio Kaji wrote:her body is NOT the salvaged remains of Yui, because Yui was turned into LCL and absorbed by Eva Unit 01


Sorry, but she was. It's stated in the red cross book, which is canon. You can't really dispute it.
okay, you know what, let's put it this way, Rei was not the PHYSICAL salvaged remains of Yui, unless the red cross book for some reason denies Yui being turned to LCL and/or absorbed by Unit 01

and besides, the creditability of the Red Cross book has many a time come into question, few give a flipping skip if it's official or not, it was not looked at by everyone involved with eva and definately has been proven to be too general in it's answers
even the Red Cross book does not have all the answers (not saying i do either btw), with all the facts that there are, there are simply some issues that are grey area and will remain so until new evidence is given or produced
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Postby Zarxrax » Thu Feb 26, 2004 6:06 pm

Daio Kaji wrote:
Zarxrax wrote:
Daio Kaji wrote:her body is NOT the salvaged remains of Yui, because Yui was turned into LCL and absorbed by Eva Unit 01


Sorry, but she was. It's stated in the red cross book, which is canon. You can't really dispute it.
okay, you know what, let's put it this way, Rei was not the PHYSICAL salvaged remains of Yui, unless the red cross book for some reason denies Yui being turned to LCL and/or absorbed by Unit 01

and besides, the creditability of the Red Cross book has many a time come into question, few give a flipping skip if it's official or not, it was not looked at by everyone involved with eva and definately has been proven to be too general in it's answers
even the Red Cross book does not have all the answers (not saying i do either btw), with all the facts that there are, there are simply some issues that are grey area and will remain so until new evidence is given or produced


It was obviously physical savlaged remains. What other kinds of remains could there possibly be? Just because she turned into LCL doesn't mean that they couldn't turn her back, they did it with shinji. The difference was that Yui's soul got absorbed by Unit-01. And its entirely probably that they could have at least reverted parts of her body.
As far as the Red Cross Book is concerned, it was APPROVED as accurate by the GAINAX staff, INCLUDING ANNO. I don't see how one could argue that it *isn't* official. It is very general in it's answers as you say, though I don't see how that could be a mark against it. And for the case in question, it specifically states that Rei was created from the salvaged parts of Yui. There is no misinterpretting that.
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Postby Daio Kaji » Thu Feb 26, 2004 6:24 pm

Zarxrax wrote:It was obviously physical savlaged remains. What other kinds of remains could there possibly be? Just because she turned into LCL doesn't mean that they couldn't turn her back, they did it with shinji. The difference was that Yui's soul got absorbed by Unit-01. And its entirely probably that they could have at least reverted parts of her body.
As far as the Red Cross Book is concerned, it was APPROVED as accurate by the GAINAX staff, INCLUDING ANNO. I don't see how one could argue that it *isn't* official. It is very general in it's answers as you say, though I don't see how that could be a mark against it. And for the case in question, it specifically states that Rei was created from the salvaged parts of Yui. There is no misinterpretting that.

no one is saying that the Red Cross book is NOT official, everyone knows it is, but people should realize (as i know you have already just said) that it does not give DEFINATE answers, there are some gray areas

and you've just said something that was untrue btw

you said that they could have salvaged Yui, but no, they couldn't, all they had was theory and the only time they tried it was on shinji and that FAILED, it didn't work, Ritsuko says 'we've failed' and the only reason that shinji is brought back is because misato's crying and him WANTING to come back was what made him come out of Unit 01

you can quote the Red Cross book all you want but it's jack-nothing compared to what the series shows and says without any kind of confusion, they couldn't bring yui back and they couldn't bring back shinji either, he was brought back through his own will power

i'll agree on Rei though, i can accept that they used Yui's LCL form to create Rei, but there was no skin/bones/flesh to use, but there were remains i'll accept that and that yui's soul by itself went to eva unit 01
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Postby Zarxrax » Thu Feb 26, 2004 6:33 pm

Ok, I'll agree on that they could have used Yui's LCL to create Rei, though I still think that there is a *possibility* that they salvaged parts of her body.
You're right about Shinji though, I forgot about that part.
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Postby Daio Kaji » Thu Feb 26, 2004 9:18 pm

kuuuuuule
few times have eva threads ended in agreement :shock:
good times 8)


any thoughts on where Adam went after Second Impact?

me thinks he floated around til germans found him, he served a few yrs in the military
then rondivued (giant sp? :shock:) with gendo via kaji-transport 8)
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Postby Zarxrax » Thu Feb 26, 2004 9:36 pm

Daio Kaji wrote:kuuuuuule
few times have eva threads ended in agreement :shock:
good times 8)


any thoughts on where Adam went after Second Impact?

me thinks he floated around til germans found him, he served a few yrs in the military
then rondivued (giant sp? :shock:) with gendo via kaji-transport 8)


Rendezvous. Possibly the greatest attrocity to the english language :p
As far as Adam, I believe Gendo probably recovered him and used it as the Basis for Unit-00, then shipped it to Germany so that they could begin work on Unit-02.
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Postby Tab. » Thu Feb 26, 2004 10:54 pm

As I've already said, I'm 99% sure that Gendo's team took Adam's DNA with on the trip back from Antarctica one day before Second Impact.
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Postby Zarxrax » Thu Feb 26, 2004 11:11 pm

Nah, it was reducing Adam to an embryonic form that caused second impact :|

Red Cross Book says so :| :roll:
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