At what point is constructive criticism no longer useful?

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Re: At what point is constructive criticism no longer useful?

Postby downwithpants » Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:48 am

BishounenStalker wrote:To the majority that are just having fun and don't care, or to those who just aren't looking to improve anymore? It's basically spitting in their corn flakes.

Then why would said majority pay attention to opinions, qcs, amv announcements feedback in the first place?
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Re: At what point is constructive criticism no longer useful?

Postby Knowname » Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:57 am

ExSphere wrote:
Knowname wrote:thus you get the internet bully stereotype

I am simply disagreeing with him. I'm not calling him names, or making fun of him. I am giving my thought's on his post.

Not to him, by your actions you are showing everybody else how to be an internet bully.

You're justifying making fun of ppl as in why not? as in their behind the monitor glass, can't reach you, can't see you, can't touch or affect you so why not be that internet prick and make thoughtless demands. By bully I just don't mean the type that teases everybody (perhaps I don't mean that at all but since you brought it up). I mean the type that pushes their weight around and are generally all around pricks. Coming from the comment 'might as well make it a demand' makes it sound like you have no respect for the other person.

But hey, there is a time and place for demands, you can't be all pussied out and never tell anyone what to do. You do have responsibilities, if your in a position of authority (say over noobs... particularly ones who act up -_-) than you must throw your authority around. It is your responsibility, and personally I take pride from it ^_^. But just say 'oh might as well' just makes you sound like an internet bully. Sorry for the rant.
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Re: At what point is constructive criticism no longer useful?

Postby BishounenStalker » Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:07 am

Then why would said majority pay attention to opinions, qcs, amv announcements feedback in the first place?


For the same reason any fanfic author pays attention to reviews; it's proof that someone actually watched it. That doesn't mean they care that some faceless anon thinks they needed more external synching or a brighter color palette or their aspect ratio is off. They just want to share their work and know that someone's bothering to look at it.

Hell, even I pay more attention to the hit count and star ratings now than to Quick Comments or even ops.
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Re: At what point is constructive criticism no longer useful?

Postby Silk_SK » Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:29 am

Knowname wrote:thus you get the internet bully stereotype


No, this is internet bully stereotype. You are fucking dumb.
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Re: At what point is constructive criticism no longer useful?

Postby Knowname » Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:38 am

Chiikaboom wrote:wut BishounenStalker said.

logically what Bishounen said but... shit the whole conversation between BS and Reda is just stupid and arguing about logistics. But yeah if they don't wanna improve than they don't HAVE to improve. I just have a hard time believing one would NOT want to improve. But I take Tom the Fish as an example. He took all his videos away (and the reason Phade does not let videos be deleted anymore giving non-extraneous circumstances)! Since he took down his vids, he does not receive criticism and he probably felt this way. I suppose some ppl really DO want to not improve, BUT... call me naive but I don't see why anybody would go to that extreme. Seems very selfish to me. Then AGAIN probly seemed very selfish to him as well, maybe he wanted everybody to be able to d/l his videos, but just couldn't take the strain of having ppl op them (this was before qc's) and be left hanging forever more because he quit. Some ppl are like that, they won't quit until they wrap up their business in their previous location. Me? I'm like an ADD dog. I'll leave my bone lying there simply cuz the wind is blowing in an interesting direction :D. But anyway shit sucks, ppl are different oh well.

This brings me back to losing your enthusiasm but still showing the motivation.

(thanks fo clearing that up silk, btw)
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Re: At what point is constructive criticism no longer useful?

Postby Sora no Honou 空の炎 » Sun Feb 07, 2010 4:14 am

I try to give constructive criticism most of the time. I think that its fine to just post just some comment on a video that isn't particularly helpful to the editor, or help their skills. Thats fine. I do always think, however, that you are never a perfect anything. While I know there are plenty of people who dont care what other people say about their amvs, but I think that you should always try to be better at what you do. Just listen to how you can be better, and TRY to take it into consideration, but whether or not you actually do is up to you.
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Re: At what point is constructive criticism no longer useful?

Postby -Reda- » Sun Feb 07, 2010 8:34 am

THIS THREAD HAS FINALLY CONVINCED ME! All constructive criticism is useless. If you have a problem with what you watched personally, keep that bullshit to yourself, no one wants to hear it. Silence! Do you not realize you are in the presence of editors who are to be considered experts? They blended the frames intentionally! It's the wrong aspect ratio because it's part of artistic expression! They made a boring as shit video because they wanted to, and it's more deep that way. Now shut up and write "THIS IS AWESOME!!!111one". Also subscribe, so you can see more of their awesome videos : )
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Re: At what point is constructive criticism no longer useful?

Postby Nya-chan Production » Sun Feb 07, 2010 9:04 am

THIS IS AWESOME!!!111one
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Re: At what point is constructive criticism no longer useful?

Postby BasharOfTheAges » Sun Feb 07, 2010 11:36 am

godix wrote:
BasharOfTheAges wrote:
There's a categorical difference between those two aspects of video making. Technical acumen isn't a good litmus test for ability or dedication..

Why isn't it? (Given the existence of the guides and literally thousands of posts referring to them and linking them - there's your dedication, i.e. initial effort, right there.)

Because tech and editing are two different things. Some people like working with filters and so on to get the best possible quality they can get, some people find that very boring. Some people enjoy the artistic aspects of editing an AMV, others view it as an annoyance. They aren't the same thing at all really. Judging AMVs by tech is like saying Van Gogh was a horrible painter because he couldn't make his own paints/canvas from raw ingredients.

If you think about it the type of mentality that's drawn to one task usually is the type that hates the other. Scripting is for the stereotypical nerd who loves programing. Editing is for the stereotypical artist who spouts freeform poetry in coffee houses. Most people aren't at the extreme ends like that of course, but I'd bet if you polled editors you'd find most fall into either the 'like scripting/hate editing' or 'hate scripting/like editing' groups.

That being said, there is a certain minimum level of tech required before you're just a joke. I think it's when the tech is so bad that it would distract from the artistic aspects for the average viewer. Things like subtitles are distracting to most viewers. But I think the level of tech required to be distracting is surprisingly low. As far as I can tell, a lot of people don't notice wrong AR, bad compression, over-filtering, etc. Hell, my wife has trouble even telling if something is interlaced or not.

And you shouldn't focus only on tech in most cases. If there's a major tech flaw or two, there's a wall that stops a focused critique - cuts it off right at the knees from the get-go. It's a first impression thing. Feel free to never mention it if it's not an issue, but don't walk past it if it is. That's all I'm saying. If you can mange to get a good feel for something when the elements that build the foundation for the field are crumbly, then I suppose it's really not that bad.

Essentially,if the spelling and grammar so bad that you can't read the story, you aren't reviewing the story - you can't read it in the first place.
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Re: At what point is constructive criticism no longer useful?

Postby nommay » Sun Feb 07, 2010 3:27 pm

This thread is no longer useful, I'm out of here
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Re: At what point is constructive criticism no longer useful?

Postby Kai Stromler » Sun Feb 07, 2010 3:35 pm

Personally, any criticism, constructive or not, stops being useful about 2 years after the video under examination is released. Anything wrong with it has either been noticed and fixed in the interim, or was done that way on purpose.

You will never get to the point where all commentary is categorically useless; you can't stand in the shoes of all your viewers at once, so every so often someone is going to have a different take that makes you go "huh, I never thought about X that way". Result: change in the way you approach your next project, no matter how subconscious or incidental.

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Re: At what point is constructive criticism no longer useful?

Postby ZephyrStar » Sun Feb 07, 2010 3:44 pm

(constructive criticism is ALWAYS useful.) :amv:
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Re: At what point is constructive criticism no longer useful?

Postby Knowname » Sun Feb 07, 2010 4:22 pm

The best constructive criticism I got this year was from one of my first videos 8-9 years ago. "Why don't you show this kind of determination now?? Your shit today sucks".
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Re: At what point is constructive criticism no longer useful?

Postby downwithpants » Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:00 am

Knowname wrote:The best constructive criticism I got this year was from one of my first videos 8-9 years ago. "Why don't you show this kind of determination now?? Your shit today sucks".

haha that's how i personally felt with my last few videos.
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Re: At what point is constructive criticism no longer useful?

Postby CrackTheSky » Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:11 am

ExSphere wrote:I'm going to have to disagree with just about everything you said here man. Your opinion of what looks good, or what needs sync is subjective and relates differently to everyone. As your thread showed, majority of the editor's there didn't agree with your scene selection or sync. For someone who has been editing for three-and-a-half years, you should know by now that not everyone's gonna enjoy your releases. But you don't need people to tell you how to edit ( and I agree with that, I think each person's style of editing should be different and unique ) but if you can't tell people what you think they should do, then there is no criticism.

I'm not saying that criticism doesn't exist, I'm saying that as far as the technical aspects go (see my post on the bottom of page three for my definition of "technical"), it's not useful to me because I did what I did for a reason. Subjective criticism is fine and dandy, but it's not going to change the way I make a video. To use Alternator as a further example, if in the future I decide to make another action video, I'm probably going to make it in a similar fashion to Alternator because that's the style I like to see, and even moreso the style I enjoy editing to.

ExSphere wrote:Isn't that what criticism is? Explaining why you didn't get some sort of enjoyment out of the video.

Well, yes. However, subjective criticism is almost inherently useless to me in a practical sense because if other people react to my video unfavorably, it's not like I'm going to go back and fix the video and reupload it to meet everyone else's standards. This does not mean that I don't enjoy hearing what other people say and knowing that they're viewing my work, but for something that's a hobby that I do in my limited free time, people telling me (at this point in my editing career) how I should edit doesn't do much for me.

ExSphere wrote:Both of those sentences were constructive criticism, one was just more demanding than the other. Either way you say it, you would still want it to have more sync. So why not say it as if you demand it? And I don't think you should be courteous to other editor's who are better than you.

It's not so much a question of courtesy as it is a question of Ileia (in this example) knows how to sync and how to do all the technical things right. I assume that because she knows what she's doing, any technical errors I might see are either known or unimportant. I also assume that my opinions on ways she should have edited the video probably would not have changed how she edited the video - that's simply how most editors are.

When I'm asked to beta other people's videos, any technical mistakes I point out are quickly patched up, but more general critiques on the editing style or overall mood tend to be completely ignored or later justified by the editor in question, not necessarily because the editor doesn't value my opinion in such matters, but because he knows exactly how he wants his video to feel and look and my vision of what the video is supposed to be ends up different from his.

You find this often in announcement threads as well. When someone leaves constructive criticism that says, "I thought this video felt too X" usually the editor will either ignore it altogether, say "Thanks for watching anyway", or "Well, that's actually what I was going for". How many editors do you see that actually acknowledge the complaint, admit that the feeling was off, and commit to changing in the future? They do exist, but almost none of them are editors who have been around for more than a couple years.

-Reda- wrote:You do realize that in order to be considered a Master in something, you need to be doing it for at least 10 years right? I think I read that at some point...and honestly, that's a shitty attitude and a weak defense of your point.

I'm not going by any absolute definition. As far as I'm concerned, I've been around long enough, watched more than enough excellent and terrible videos, and made enough videos myself to know the basics. That's all I'm claiming; I'm not saying I've perfected the art or even approached perfecting it, but I do believe that I have a solid base for the formation of my own opinion of what looks "good".

-Reda- wrote:Honestly, want it or not, you're going to get criticism. An ignorant man rejects it and thinks he knows everything, a wise man is humble and listens, accepting the fact that what he knows is nothing in the scheme of things. Whether you like it or not, you can learn a LOT from criticism. When I hear what people say about my video, I apply that knowledge to a general pool of "what does my audience look for". You can determine what people like and become more successful.

Well, I'm going to end up falling back on the "Well I just do it for me" defense, so...

-Reda- wrote:But when you release a video here, it's not just for you any more. Whether you argue that or not, that's up to you. But if you're just doing it for you, there's no reason to ever release videos. You can keep them to yourself and watch them whenever you'd like. In the meantime, humble yourself and listen to what people have to say whether you like it or not, and use it to improve yourself further.

I won't argue your point that it's not just for me anymore once I release a video on the .org, and I even said in my first post that anyone who releases a video on the .org or YouTube or anywhere has some innate desire to impress others. I'm not free of this claim, but at the same time my reasons for releasing my video on the .org are more numerous than just that: I know that there are other editors out there who have enjoyed my work in the past, and so may enjoy my current work as well; the primary purpose of the .org is to catalog all AMVs; it's useful to have somewhere that all my videos will be kept in case something happens to my computer. And I do enjoy hearing what people have to say; however, I don't see it as a failure when others dislike my video, I simply see it as a difference in taste.

And I would like to throw one other question out there in response to Reda's statement above: What constitutes "improvement"? I find that to be a vague term, and likely a subjective one, but the way you used it above, Reda, makes it sound like one cannot improve without the approval of others. I don't know if I agree with that or not, but I'd like to hear others' opinions on this.
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