PAYMVs!

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Re: PAYMVs!

Postby Athena » Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:29 am

Otohiko wrote:Not sure where the anime industry is on that, but last I checked they're unofficially pretty happy with the status quo on AMVs, at least in North America.


This is because of the way the American and Canadian industries were created: ADV, Funimation, AnimEigo... they were all fansubbers first. Rare was the company like Harmony Gold or Voyager Entertainment that started out with a business plan looking for licensing.

The Japanese industry is a lot more vocal of MADs and the ilk, but the government has been pretty much unwilling to act. This was especially true when Taro Aso was prime minister. He was swept into office in large part due to his direct campaigning to otaku, and he maintained a strong stance in support of MADs and Doujinshi (Aso was a huge fan of Rozen Maiden, desu desu desu desu). Despite promises by the DPJ to help the industry control fan works, Hatoyama and company do not really appear to be doing much else but maintaining the status quo.
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Re: PAYMVs!

Postby BasharOfTheAges » Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:44 am

I wouldn't pay a tax. I would switch to CC attribution-only music sources, donate heavily (my time and money) to groups or organizations staunchly opposed to this, and do anything I could to remove the people who voted such legislation in from office. If I could manage to somehow make their lives more difficult in the process, that would be a plus.
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Re: PAYMVs!

Postby downwithpants » Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:18 pm

mirkosp wrote:I was thinking like something to be payed to the SIAE (think of like the RIAA and MPAA together over there, but not quite the same since the laws are different), that would then split the incomes to the various artists depending on download counts and other estimates (obviously keeping a part of the income for themselves, but the huge bulk of it would be split).

That's like royalties with extra red tape. :down:

It is currently possible to set up an arrangement directly with an artist or its licensing company to legally produce and distribute a derivative work, though it's not guaranteed they'll agree to it (example: the Michael Jackson film, This Is It). If we let this agreement be instaed decided by someone like the RIAA, it would take control away from the original artists, which would be unfair to them.
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Re: PAYMVs!

Postby godix » Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:26 pm

Any way of collecting money other than a universal fee would fail. Few people would know there even is a fee, much less how to pay it and be willing to pay. Voluntary methods would fail just because of that. A universal fee would have to be something like Canada's blank media levy where everyone who buys a song pays the fee in the assumption they'll be remixing. Most people will never do anything like this, so it's rather unfair to ask everyone to pay for what only few do.

Plus there's complexity. You couldn't just go 'Slap five cents on every song sold and let people remix all they want'. Currently if you remix a song for professional release it costs a shitload of money in royalties. Which is actually reasonable, professional releases are actually earning a lot of money (for someone, be in record companies or whatever) so the original creators deserve some. But AMVs and other fan based remixes aren't making any money and wouldn't come close to paying that level of royalties. Which either means we would end up violating yet another law as no one here would pay thousands of dollars to use a song in their AMV, or the law like this would have to be crafted very carefully with the difference between professional and hobby in mind, which means the law starts getting complex. As the law gets more complex, less and less people will understand it and many will violate it just because they don't want to take the effort of understanding it.
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Re: PAYMVs!

Postby Bauzi » Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:35 pm

Our resant most fanous popartist made a cover of our national hymne in rock style for a tv spot for our national education system. The original text got modified:
"you are a country of big sons and girls" (she added the "and girls part")

Now she gets sued because she added this part. That's right. Not because of the melody or something. Just because of the lyrics alone, because she altered them a bit.

"It's not about money. It's about the harmed personal rights of this media. It's a scandal to alter the hymne this way."
Yeah right... fuck you all greedy money sucking bastards. The best point of the story: The original copyright of the lyrics is dead. That means that it already ran out. They don't even ask nicely for some small amount of royalities. No they just decided to sue her big times.

Months ago there was a public action to change the national hymne to exactly those lines (and some more parts) for gender reasons. No one ever complained about the copyright of this media that time.

You know... people didn't riot after Hendrix' famous interpretation of the american national hymne at Woodstock. Everybody remembers it and most of the people think it's great.


Oh no... piss-off-meter goes through the roof again :?
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Re: PAYMVs!

Postby Knowname » Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:39 pm

I don't mind as long as it comes with <.< OTHER >.> services ahahaha!
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Re: PAYMVs!

Postby AGF-Antoine » Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:57 pm

I wouldn't mind paying a tax, if it meant that AMV's wouldn't be illegal anymore.
I mean, if it wouldn't be illegal anymore, it might even get some proper attention on television etc(Nation-wide Anime Fun TV or something).

But the thing with the music industry is that they overprice their CD's and thus get huge profits.
So they partly cause the pirating issue themselves. I mean like, 20 euro for a CD that has 2 or 3 good songs is insane.
Don't get me wrong, I buy the CDs that have the songs I like, but I still think its overpriced, especially around here in the Netherlands.

Other then that, I think its indeed a neat way to advertise the anime and the music.

All in all this does show that both industries, especially the music one, don't yet fully see the potential of AMV's.
This is mostly the producers, since I know quite some bands actually like AMV's.

In any case, I think there should indeed come a way to make AMV's legal, to accept this way of artistic expression and accept that it indeed has promotional purposes.


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Re: PAYMVs!

Postby osnar » Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:49 am

AGF-Antoine wrote:I wouldn't mind paying a tax, if it meant that AMV's wouldn't be illegal anymore.
I mean, if it wouldn't be illegal anymore, it might even get some proper attention on television etc(Nation-wide Anime Fun TV or something).


this is the one of the benefit if amvs become legal :up:
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Re: PAYMVs!

Postby Nira1992 » Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:10 am

http://transformativeworks.org/

The OTC is an organization created to protect fan communities. They're more "protecting the communities" than "make it legal", since for the most part, it already is, according to the information they have on their site. Some things are borderline, but not all of it. In fact, what we all do with clips is perfectly legal, according to this:

"Fair use favors uses that (1) are noncommercial and not sold for a profit; (2) are transformative, adding new meaning and messages to the original; (3) are limited, not copying the entirety of the original; and (4) do not substitute for the original work. None of these factors is absolutely necessary for fair use, but they all help, and we believe that fanworks like those in the archive easily qualify as fair uses based on all these factors."

Quote taken from their FAQ under the legal tab.

For anyone who wants to look into the legal aspects of fan communities (vidding, which includes AMVs, fanfiction, etc.), this is a very good site.
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Re: PAYMVs!

Postby Knowname » Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:14 am

That's what I'm sayin! I'd do it if I could sell my shit... but you'd have to be deaf dumb and blind to buy my shit :/
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Re: PAYMVs!

Postby mirkosp » Tue Jan 26, 2010 6:39 am

Nira: that statement is true for the US, but in Italy there's no such thing as fair use, or at least, what could be considered fair use is much more limited and restricted, so it doesn't really help AMVing at all.
So basically, depending on the country, a tax that would ensure you to be 100% legal could be welcome. At least, I know it'd make me feel more secure rather than worrying about things like "well, technically it could be ok, but if they wanted they could sue me..." just 'cause the law doesn't help. :?
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Re: PAYMVs!

Postby Bauzi » Tue Jan 26, 2010 6:54 am

Okay and how expenssive should the tax be?

-Single anime, single song
-multiple anime, single song
-multiple anime, multiple songs a.k.a. MEP
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Re: PAYMVs!

Postby 8bit_samurai » Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:47 am

I would be against implementing some kinda tax on AMVs and other remix hobbies.

However, if they do implement something, I don't think it would be a tax, but something like a privatized DJ license or something like that. I'd think it'd work best if it went something like the actual Privatized DJ license (or whatever ya wanna call it) is free (however, if you get one you'd have to get like a public domain stamp or something similar, which would cost the minimal price which may be like $0.44 or something), but you'd have to buy stamps from either artists, record labels, film producers, license distributors, etc. and each would be able to set their price of a stamp (if they own one) to a minimal amount or maximum amount. The actual license itself would probably expire just like how long a regular driver's license/State ID card would expire, but those who distributed the stamp could set their own expiration ranging from a year to however long the license would expire. I think that would work best, but even so, I wouldn't get one and just retire from editing.
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Re: PAYMVs!

Postby Knowname » Tue Jan 26, 2010 4:52 pm

Seriously ppl will buy anything on ebay nowadays. If they totally legalized it and it was actually viable to sell my amvs on Ebay I'd totally do it. I mean you got WoW accounts going for thousands of dollars how freeking much do you think ppl would pay for Euphoria? Or Animeigo or whatever licensing company is left. *One more reason to kidnap Koop* Making stuff legal can be useful beyond just making one feel safe. It'd at least allow a lot of us to put amvs as legally accredited vouchers on our applications. Now it's little more than a footnote. I mean just look at the remixing community (ocremix) I still don't know how they got onto last.fm (this the dj license thing?).

It'd probly make the VCA's a LOT more interesting too... I mean if we had a legal TV broadcast we could have an actual location for them and celeb appearances (I mean it IS their music...) I'm getting ahead of myself but that would be HELLA' funny *_*. This site in itself would change like a whole ton.

Some would quit though, inevitably, as the landscape would change from a decently easy to get into hobby into something you can make a living off of. Again ahead of myself, I doubt I'd EVER make a living off this stuff, but...

Yeah, lots more to this than just some ppl feeling safe. Though, I didn't know Italians had no legal protection whatsoever o.0 that's too bad... Lots of entrepreneur ventures start as hobbies.

Can't see it happening though :x
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Re: PAYMVs!

Postby mirkosp » Wed Jan 27, 2010 7:19 am

Actually, I was very much seeing it as 8bit is. I mean, some sort of "you pay a set amount once and you're good for a long while" and not based on every source you use. So perhaps license is a more appropriate name rather than tax, but yeah, that's what I was thinking it could be. Perhaps not to the extent of seeling amvs, but clearly being able of feeling secure would be nice, plus it'd basically remove the Evanescence issue, for example.
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