PAYMVs!

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Re: PAYMVs!

Postby EvaFan » Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:22 pm

We pay for what we use to create but we dont pay for what we create, it should stay that way. They can argue that we are making their stuff more easily attainable illegaly, and we are, but the person who muxed the song from your amv to use another way is the one doing something illegal IMO, make him pay instead of all of us.

As for the anime aspect, I think thats moot. It's really hard to get all you want to see from an anime through just amv's if not impossible. If anything they should make you more interested in buying them and they do alot for me, same with the music actually.

All so, if you let them tax you here for something you've created who's to say it stops here? Next we get taxed for drawing/painting things we don't own.
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Re: PAYMVs!

Postby Panky » Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:57 pm

Given the fact that most of us (well, all of us) are doing it right now is because we believe that making such thing illegal lacks of sense. Well, if you keep editing and really think it's straight wrong in terms of legality, I don't know what is wrong with you. I don't think paying after this would make any sense either, right? If we were that commited to the fact of it being legal/illegal until now, we wouldn't have even started it.

If you were between jail and paying, anyone would pay if it's a reasonable amount, I can bet on that. Else, nothing would change. That's the way I see it.
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Re: PAYMVs!

Postby Bauzi » Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:17 pm

Code wrote: And while most people here help out the industry by supporting the companies and purchasing the anime they use and the CD's they use, they are a small minority in the dark hole that is the internet. >___>

That's better than 0% of buyers of a hobby that never existed before.

We don't promote stealing media. Do amvs promote you to steal more? No they're not. You would steal the same without them or even more because than you don't hardly any use for super quality CD, DVD, Bluray footage or software at all. They bring you closer to the stuff that you really love and that you would consider to buy because you're a fan or want to use it in a video too.

It's everything up to the individual.
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Re: PAYMVs!

Postby CodeZTM » Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:56 pm

I had a huge paragraph typed out, ready to come out and argue this, but I realized how pointless it is. :D

In short:
I'd pay the tax to make everything legal in a heartbeat. That's all I'm really trying to say, because this is a great hobby, and I'd hate to see anybody fall victim to the illegal nature of this hobby and suffer because of it. That and as a business major, I agree with it. They're not taxing us for our creative uses, they're taxing us for the materials we use. To make it simpler, it's like a bigger sales tax. >___>
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Re: PAYMVs!

Postby Bauzi » Wed Jan 20, 2010 4:16 pm

Hey if it comes down to it and if I have to pay it, I surely would. Still I really can't agree on this tax. Addvertising the source should be enough. It's a fair game. A lot of people probably won't get attention for their work due to quality or popularity, but the big players will always pay up for them too.
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Re: PAYMVs!

Postby mirkosp » Wed Jan 20, 2010 4:22 pm

At the end of the day it's all a matter of risky but fair situation vs 100% safe... I'd go 100% safe for the sake of it, which is why I don't think having a tax wouldn't be too bad.
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Re: PAYMVs!

Postby Bauzi » Wed Jan 20, 2010 4:25 pm

I, personally as editor, would probably take the risky one, because:
1. I believe in free fair use
2. I'm naiv. "The noobz FBI wont get me anyway!"

Yeah okay if there are both systems I would probably invest the mone if it's not a nasty amount.
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Re: PAYMVs!

Postby downwithpants » Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:34 pm

they're called "royalties", unless i am misunderstanding you.

the ones who need to be compensated are the original artists/licensing party, not any level of government (unless the government is the original artist).
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Re: PAYMVs!

Postby Kitsuner » Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:51 pm

Eva-Fan wrote:All so, if you let them tax you here for something you've created who's to say it stops here? Next we get taxed for drawing/painting things we don't own.

Yeah, if we let them put taxes on our AMVs, it won't be long before they add a tax on all wicker goods! I have plenty of wicker goods! I don't want a tax on my wicker goods!
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Re: PAYMVs!

Postby Otohiko » Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:37 pm

Who is going to get paid out of this tax, though, is the real question.

Are we paying anime producers and actual musicians whose work we use, or are we paying licensed distributors and major music labels? Is everyone involved in our work actually going to benefit, or are we simply supporting a licensing system which, if somewhat acceptable in the case of anime, is completely unethical and generally disdainable in the case of music companies?

There have been the same proposals for a tax on downloading music in Canada. My dad, who is an independent musician and makes all his money that way, is staunchly against this. Why? Because the effect of such a tax is that it gives government bodies control over distribution of pay for legitimate artistic output, and therefore allows them to define legitimate artistic output. To be more cynical, what this will allow is a feeder for corporate-by-way-of-government-controlled artists, and a way to press on those who want to maintain their formal independence. This is a completely unacceptable situation.

Back to AMVs, this would likewise give the government unnecessary additional control over the creative output of those who don't even seek to profit from this in the first place. Personally, I'd rather do this illegally in protest.
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Re: PAYMVs!

Postby Megamom » Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:57 pm

Illegal AMV = hobby
Legal AMV = business

I really do not understand because an AMV would be legal... but if it were legal to make AMVs... many industries that would take advantage of it, make AMVs and would not make sense to me :down:
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Re: PAYMVs!

Postby Athena » Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:03 am

Otohiko wrote:Who is going to get paid out of this tax, though, is the real question.

Are we paying anime producers and actual musicians whose work we use, or are we paying licensed distributors and major music labels? Is everyone involved in our work actually going to benefit, or are we simply supporting a licensing system which, if somewhat acceptable in the case of anime, is completely unethical and generally disdainable in the case of music companies?

There have been the same proposals for a tax on downloading music in Canada. My dad, who is an independent musician and makes all his money that way, is staunchly against this. Why? Because the effect of such a tax is that it gives government bodies control over distribution of pay for legitimate artistic output, and therefore allows them to define legitimate artistic output. To be more cynical, what this will allow is a feeder for corporate-by-way-of-government-controlled artists, and a way to press on those who want to maintain their formal independence. This is a completely unacceptable situation.

Back to AMVs, this would likewise give the government unnecessary additional control over the creative output of those who don't even seek to profit from this in the first place. Personally, I'd rather do this illegally in protest.


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Re: PAYMVs!

Postby mirkosp » Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:48 am

Oh, right, sorry, I thought of how taxes and licensing work in Italy, so there are some differences. I was thinking like something to be payed to the SIAE (think of like the RIAA and MPAA together over there, but not quite the same since the laws are different), that would then split the incomes to the various artists depending on download counts and other estimates (obviously keeping a part of the income for themselves, but the huge bulk of it would be split). Then again, things work differently over there, so I'm not sure how feasible it would be. Also, note, in the first post I did say "remix culture" in general, and not just AMVs - that broadens the amount of involved works quite a bit.
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Re: PAYMVs!

Postby Bauzi » Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:27 am

Almost 10% of the DVD sales here go to an institut (like the RIAA) is split between all the musical artists in the film. As far as I know: equally.
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Re: PAYMVs!

Postby Otohiko » Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:33 am

Considering I already try to buy all my music from RIAA-free labels as it is, just flatly giving RIAA my money is a no-go for me. Although a lot of artists whose music I use in AMVs also happen to own their copyright and therefore in the case of music at least, I owe nothing to RIAA nor expect to be sued by RIAA.
Not sure where the anime industry is on that, but last I checked they're unofficially pretty happy with the status quo on AMVs, at least in North America.

And then you have places like Russia where anime distributors and music artists/labels actually actively sponsor AMV contests. THAT I think is where we really should be - although as per most places' copyright law and culture of litigation, it's sort of hard to work it out. But honestly, I don't understand why AMVers should be paying here. At most, the power of copyright holders involved should be a C&D order if they are unhappy with how their work is being used. It's at least fair enough that producers of something should have a right to block someone from using their work in a way they don't approve of. But not extort money in 'compensation' - IMHO the right to sue remix hobbyists for cash, or alternatively demand cash to NOT avoid litigation (and that is basically what this idea amounts to), should just be off the books in law.

As for tax money, well, there's plenty of better ways than just paying tribute to RIAA/MPAA/whatever - like for example putting some more government funds into media technology research. So that we all get better access to content and media companies finally get a fucking clue that their promotion, marketing and distribution strategies are not working and change them for the benefit of everyone. That's what a lot of their problems actually come down to - the remix culture does nothing to damage their income and, if they look at it pragmatically (like a lot of them do), actually helps them. A tax might help them be a little less pissed and desperate, but it will not solve their underlying problems and will only further morally sink an industry that already thrives on extortion (from both artists and the wider public) as their main source of income.
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