Commenting system outdatted?

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Re: Commenting system outdatted?

Postby Athena » Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:26 am

Pankyy wrote:although I don't think it would be a bright idea to do here considering the real purpose of the site of hosting every possible AMV.


No, it's not! Stop saying that! :x

How do these rumours get started?

Th expressed purpose of the org is to catalogue every AMV, not host as many of them as possible.
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Re: Commenting system outdatted?

Postby Enigma » Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:34 am

Kionon wrote:
Pankyy wrote:although I don't think it would be a bright idea to do here considering the real purpose of the site of hosting every possible AMV.


No, it's not! Stop saying that! :x

How do these rumours get started?

Th expressed purpose of the org is to catalogue every AMV, not host as many of them as possible.


If it was to host every AMV we'd sure fail along time ago :P
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Re: Commenting system outdatted?

Postby Panky » Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:37 am

Kionon wrote:
Pankyy wrote:although I don't think it would be a bright idea to do here considering the real purpose of the site of hosting every possible AMV.


No, it's not! Stop saying that! :x

How do these rumours get started?

Th expressed purpose of the org is to catalogue every AMV, not host as many of them as possible.


But the fact is, if those SM AMV's get removed from youtube, low chances are they are gonna be up somewhere else but here. You can catalogue a SM AMV with a linking park song, but there could well be other 10's, while 8 suck, the other 3 can be really cool (linking park is just a overused example).
Again, you're right about it, but that's just another part of what I think the ORG could be useful for. To me, hosting is somehow like cataloguing, if you just have the log, what would be the real use?

Soup wrote:If it was to host every AMV we'd sure fail along time ago :P


Crap, you really got me there... let's just leave it to those fortunate enough to find the Org. :oops:
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Re: Commenting system outdatted?

Postby Knowname » Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:58 am

Kai Stromler wrote:While hosting space is not free, it is not generally as expensive, byte for byte, as bandwidth. The .org may have difficulties because of the popular videos that we have currently; adding a relatively trivial number of videos that nobody, statistically, is going to watch is not going to weigh in on that.

Collectively, maybe Kionion has a point and this isn't sustainable. But if this is the case, the damage is already done, and adding this particular brick or barrowload of bricks is not pushing us past any magical tipping point.

If true, than why are streaming sites so successful? why do companies give their content away over their bandwidth (with perhaps an unnecessary ad or two) for free? That is true, but thinking that we can't give it away and still profit is so obviously not true ^_^. Thinking about this here is the reason I think this is (it may not be right, but...) I believe the content simply is worth more than the bandwidth. Users should get free content as sort of an advertising budget. We shouldn't be charged for this stuff it should all be free! That is, if the alternative is to charge. Our problem is that our alternative, we don't have an alternative, we don't have a profit to be made. So even if we don't charge for bandwidth our content cannot profit as we don't sell anything :x no profits = site goes down. Quite frankly I'm surprised at how successful the donut has been thus far already! Somebody's gotta be hurting that's just the way the world works.

ANYWAY my only point here is, our space (as a PRIVATE venture, not a PUBLIC COMPANY) here is MANY TIMES more finite than Yewtoob's, we can afford a few jokers, a few mishaps and badly encoded videos, but until recently the org has been ruled by the 'elite' and 'stuck up' crowd, pretty much all uploads were mp4s and encoded at least decently... who's the one with the 'did you forget to encode you audio?' link in their sig? Scintilla? Zarxrax? lol I snicker at that every time I see it :/ not only is that a non-issue now but it's also basically obsolete with all the mp4s out! Well anyway, such a waste of space :| the donut could freely exist with all the hoity toity mp4s and even scrubbed up (non-hd) xvids, but. if our crowd is to change you can expect the rules to change as well. Do you want that?

I'd like a graph comparing the cost of streaming to the cost of actual hosting downloads. Maybe non-donators (who most likely do not know how to properly encode.. not like it's hard or anything) should be stuck with just streams while donators get downloads?

This is what I meant about this being of relevance. It's all old school vs. new school and we need to change or else face some pretty mean consequences.

Kai Stromler wrote:adding a relatively trivial number of videos that nobody, statistically, is going to watch is not going to weigh in on that.

I'm not so sure, have you looked at the typical 15yr old fangirl these days?? lol they don't care about technicalities all they want is their favorite scene in an amv :/.

Besides I was impressed by some of her stuff :| I'm not saying this to be mean or rude (at first I was :/... well the encoding leaves room to improve, all of it being wmv and taking up 2x as much space as an mp4, but there is potential in the one I saw). I'm just doing this cuz I don't want to see this service taken advantage of. This is the whole thing. This user comes in with 200+ videos then maybe another, then maybe another. The space is a problem, but thats the least of our worries. How much ATTENTION is all this gonna get us? How long until the big lawyers turn their attention to us? Not fun :x.

I'm kind of sad though, she's signed on the last few days but hadn't uploaded anything :( one part of me is sad but the other part of me thinks we may have dodged a bullet... That may just be the opening salvo. Seems many have started to migrate here from YT due to this mess. I however, was very polite (but straightforward in my qcs), I gave 2 ops with great information and didn't say anything about posting videos just talking about that video and recomending others like it (Aluminum Studios, Ermac's FY vids, Moonlight Soldier and Moonie). Only time I was a little pushy was when I QCed one saying this site was made to catalog all entrys so PLEASE don't u/l all 200 videos but please catalog all videos you have made. I also suggested direct/ indirect links for the others as you cannot take down local links. Unfortunately she hasn't done anything for the last two days :/ lol and the site uploads reflect that :|.
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Re: Commenting system outdatted?

Postby 8bit_samurai » Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:04 am

If the site's goal is to catalogue every AMV possible, shouldn't it evolve to help achieve that goal? And if hosting, previews, embedding, etc. entices both new and old editors who haven't join the Org to enter their AMV(s) into the Org's catalogue, wouldn't that help towards the Org's goal? Accommodating to the user may sound like defeat, but on the other hand, having them accommodate to the Org may sound like a fuck you to them, especially if they don't understand some of the processes. I'm not saying the Org should become like youtube, but it should find some middle ground between accommodating the user and having the user accommodate to the Org where both ends are comfortable.

That being said, I think the Org is fine how it is right now (perhaps just a tad too comfy, but I'm sure I can adapt), although nowadays I don't dl very many videos (despite the large queue I have atm). If I wanted youtube like comments, I would've joined the 'satchel long ago.
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Re: Commenting system outdatted?

Postby Knowname » Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:14 am

Pankyy wrote:if you just have the log, what would be the real use?


Back in the old days the org was an index. The more privileged users had their own ftps they could link from and many shared with others they thought had potential :P it was kind of fun trying to drum up server space from some 'sugar daddy/ pimp momma' :D But any way mostly you just had a big ole 'not downloadable' and had to share it on p2p/ irc or torrent.

Also we actually had a thriving community where you could request a video in the forums and maybe set up a d/l that way.

It was anemic back in the stone age, but we got by :(

before the org was even worse and ppl actually had to hang out together, getting PURELY from word of mouth on irc/ mailing list or even in person at cons!!
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Re: Commenting system outdatted?

Postby godix » Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:51 am

Pankyy wrote:pd: how do you check the total downloads for an AMV? I can only see in a year, or previous year.

Edit Video Info will tell you how many total views a video has and what sort of they are (local, direct, preview, or indirect). The bandwidth Used page you're talking about gives you more detail of when they occurred, but only withing the recent past.


As for the other argument going on:

Kionon: I don't expect you to come up to date to this year, but could you at least join the same century the rest of us are living in? The 90's are dead.

Knowname: Even if she had a thousand videos to upload, the org as a whole would still have less than half the videos uploaded this year than it had back in 2003/4 when HD space was more expensive, the RIAA was more lawsuit happy, and even the best compression of the day was far larger than what a default mp4 conversion is today. If the org survived then, a couple hundred bad SM vids aren't going to kill it. Now the state of donations in general might, but that's a different issue.
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Re: Commenting system outdatted?

Postby BasharOfTheAges » Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:27 am

godix wrote:
Pankyy wrote:pd: how do you check the total downloads for an AMV? I can only see in a year, or previous year.

Edit Video Info will tell you how many total views a video has and what sort of they are (local, direct, preview, or indirect). The bandwidth Used page you're talking about gives you more detail of when they occurred, but only withing the recent past.

To expand - the bandwidth used page also counts repeat downloads from the same person and partial downloads that failed, so it's more accurate about how much you've used. Only way to keep that information completely up to date is to stay on it with a spreadsheet. I've been doing this since 2006 (and doki was kind enough to give me my 2004-2005 data upon request). I'm sure some useful metrics could be pulled from it at some point, but in the mean time it lets me correlate my total bandwidth i'm responsible for the servers using on my crap with my total amount donated (last I checked, i'm paying around 40 cents / GB with under 6k total dls).
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Re: Commenting system outdatted?

Postby Knowname » Fri Dec 18, 2009 2:04 am

Can they count indirect and direct? last I checked (many years since I'd had one of those anyway) they couldn't.

And the state of donations IS the exact issue here, if one person comes and uploads 200+ videos what's to stop 50 more such ppl from doing it? As far as donating goes, is that one person gonna pull his/ her weight?? in the passed, I'll even admit to doing this, it took me a few years to get to donating (and no I didn't just donate when I started in the OT forum, I just been ignoring it) but at the time we had the membership and the benevolent veteran 'guidance' to PAY for my ass :P now? it's pretty much disappearing :( or at least getting to the point that a select few can no longer hold up for the majority. Maybe it's the circle of life, maybe it's my turn to give back to the community, but I just don't trust these kids nowadays... maybe if they didn't come in with 250 wmvs I'd be willing, but I don't want to be paying for their ass if they are going to be pulling this shit.
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Re: Commenting system outdatted?

Postby Kai Stromler » Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:10 am

Knowname wrote:Can they count indirect and direct? last I checked (many years since I'd had one of those anyway) they couldn't.


Direct and indirect are tracked on the "Edit Video Info" page, but not on the local bandwidth page because, selfapparently, they are not on local.

Knowname wrote:And the state of donations IS the exact issue here, if one person comes and uploads 200+ videos what's to stop 50 more such ppl from doing it?


Because every indication is that this person is an extreme outlier. Normal people, even normal youtube users, do not casually break the hundred-video barrier. When the fiftieth user with more than a hundred videos on local joins, I'll grant you your point. Until then, this is an extreme outlier case that cannot be used as the harbinger of any particular trend.

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Re: Commenting system outdatted?

Postby dokidoki » Fri Dec 18, 2009 1:53 pm

Kai Stromler wrote:Because every indication is that this person is an extreme outlier. Normal people, even normal youtube users, do not casually break the hundred-video barrier. When the fiftieth user with more than a hundred videos on local joins, I'll grant you your point.

After looking it up, there appear to be eight people with over 100 uploaded videos. That's one or two per year of LOCAL existence. (In each case, the average size per video was <50MB)

Also, overall uploads are declining per year, with under 4000 uploaded so far in 2009. With around 5TB free, if that number were to hold, there's enough space for over a decade.
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Re: Commenting system outdatted?

Postby BasharOfTheAges » Fri Dec 18, 2009 6:00 pm

dokidoki wrote:
Kai Stromler wrote:Because every indication is that this person is an extreme outlier. Normal people, even normal youtube users, do not casually break the hundred-video barrier. When the fiftieth user with more than a hundred videos on local joins, I'll grant you your point.

After looking it up, there appear to be eight people with over 100 uploaded videos.

Next time I see OFL I'm referring to him as one of the elite 8. In the most condescending way possible.
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Re: Commenting system outdatted?

Postby dokidoki » Fri Dec 18, 2009 6:35 pm

BasharOfTheAges wrote:Next time I see OFL I'm referring to him as one of the elite 8. In the most condescending way possible.

He only has 86 uploaded. Some of his are in/direct, and I believe collabs are only counted against the uploader's stats.
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Re: Commenting system outdatted?

Postby Athena » Fri Dec 18, 2009 6:45 pm

godix wrote:Kionon: I don't expect you to come up to date to this year, but could you at least join the same century the rest of us are living in? The 90's are dead.


What are you talking about. It's still 1989.
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Re: Commenting system outdatted?

Postby Knowname » Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:31 pm

Kai Stromler wrote:Because every indication is that this person is an extreme outlier. Normal people, even normal youtube users, do not casually break the hundred-video barrier.

that may be true (I kinda' doubt that, on YT, this is the case but...) but there are a TON more users there who think they can spit a video out in a couple hours and be done with it! I just don't see how we can take the place of YT when many of their users are coming over here. We must make it clear to them that we are NOT YTT, we DO NOT want and CAN NOT have the attention and legal issues that YT gets. I do NOT want this new stream of users to bring us down

Kai Stromler wrote:When the fiftieth user with more than a hundred videos on local joins, I'll grant you your point. Until then, this is an extreme outlier case that cannot be used as the harbinger of any particular trend.

So your gonna wait till AFTER the fact to fix it? Your gonna wait till Phade gets fined 3 million dollars (and Piratebay got off cheap if you ask me) for copyright infringement and abating a crime then your gonna sit at home and think 'well maybe if we did this...' :/

dokidoki wrote:overall uploads are declining per year, with under 4000 uploaded so far in 2009. With around 5TB free, if that number were to hold, there's enough space for over a decade.


that is true but if left unabated stunts such as these won't be very kind to our servers to say the least. As I said, the org has always had a reputation of being for the 'elite' right now ppl are still struggling with avis, we've been using mp4s for 2, 3 years now. The norm, in fact the EXPECTED media of uploads has been mp4s for a while now, how many of this girls' amvs are mp4s? none, out of like 20 uploaded. If that is what we can expect multiplied by the dozens of immigrators we get from YT then get ready for those HDs to fill in HALF the time due to the inferior encodes alone! And you don't expect to only get 4000 uploads next year IF a bunch of Yootubers add on do you? Never mind the original users we'll have at LEAST 4000 plus maybe... 1500 BADLY ENCODED videos next year? Double that second number since their badly encoded and you get 7000 nearly twice as much. Something too worry about? maybe not, maybe. But it won't last us no 10 years. Things like these tend to propigate not wait till we're ready for them.
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