US editors: Look at what is going on in congress (IMPORTANT)

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Postby trythil » Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:40 pm

ssj4lonewolf wrote:lol whole companys would be screwed if this went threw, specifically apple. Apple gets most of its sales through the ipod, you know this would technically fuck up the whole tenical economy.


No, it wouldn't. Corporations can pay for licensing.

Individuals often cannot; and, in the case of open products, being able to pay is often irrelevant, for reasons I wrote above.

ssj4lonewolf wrote:Time to learn japanese fluently, and move...


Why do people get this idea that JAPAN is the land of salvation?
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Postby Flint the Dwarf » Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:56 pm

trythil wrote:Why do people get this idea that JAPAN is the land of salvation?

Yeah really, I thought it was common knowledge that it's Canada.

trythil wrote:For that matter, so have a surprising number of people posting in this thread.

Oh come on, is it really that surprising?
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Postby Otohiko » Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:23 pm

Flint the Dwarf wrote:
trythil wrote:Why do people get this idea that JAPAN is the land of salvation?

Yeah really, I thought it was common knowledge that it's Canada.


If you're running from copyright law, the place to be these days is [Soviet?] Russia :roll:
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Postby genestarwind21122 » Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:23 pm

risk one wrote:
SQ wrote:Do you think, if this bill is passed, it may also effect the new format DVDs(whichever format they chose to go with? BluRay or ... HD[I think it was named])?

I'm a dumbass, I've read this whole thread and I'm really not understanding.

Analog -> Computer is like tapes to computer, but then you guys said it would affect more.. X|


Here's a recap (as I understand it):

So far there has always been one major problem with copy protection, called the 'analog hole'. Take audio, no matter how clever their copy protection is, if you can play it back, then you can record it, and once you record your way the copy protection is gone. The same goes for video, if push comes to shove, you can just plug the cable that normally goes into your tv, into your VCR, tivo or capture card and you can record the analog signal. As soon as it becomes analog, the *AA are powerless, right? Wrong. Imagine everything they would need to control to stop people from working this way. They would need every company that manufactures recording devices (think VCR, computer, radio mp3 player) to comply with a system of their design where when they say "don't record this" it won't record it. And that's what they're proposing.

One example of this is the broadcast flag. Nevermind that VCR owners have been able to record television broadcasts for over thirty years without limiting the entertainment industry's profits in any way, the MPAA now wants people to stop doing it if they say so. They want all tivo's to stop their owners from recording television if the broadcasting station decides to flag the broadcast.

And now they've just decided to go for the whole pie. They want to control all recording hardware. But it'll get cracked, right? Doesn't it always get cracked? Well, it always got cracked, because it was always software. This time they've decided to control our hardware, and that's very nearly impossible to crack. So forget about using DVD's for footage, your new DVD drive will only let you play it back to your cerified monitor with a certified media player (certification of software will require a small fee, but nothing any multimillion dollar software house can't afford. We'll just have to do without all those pesky freeware and open source programs, the MPAA's profits are at stake!). Forget about using VHS footage, your new capture card won't let you capture, and your new VCR will only let you play it back to a certified television, certainly not another VCR. Forget about using fansubs, because if the ripping groups can't capture a live broadcast or rip a DVD, there'll be no more fansubs.

This may be a worst case scenario, but it's important to realize that it's the best case scenario for the RIAA and the MPAA. These organisations exist because we give them money. We're their clients and this is what they're selling us.


So basically they are trying to control anything that will allow you to copy a dvd, tv show or anything of that nature. It willn't allow you to transfer footage unless everything is certified. So how can they stop us from the equipment we already have. Are they going to come to our door and replace all the equipment we own with new stuff? Will they force us to get rid of our old stuff and get new stuff? I know they can't do that. This seems to be way to over the top to be passed. But if it does what is the reason again that we can't use our old stuff, even if they started to replace stuff in the stores? Does this spell the end to any type of amateur/home/fun video editing? How will this affect conventions from the fan point?
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Postby Vlad G Pohnert » Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:35 pm

Geeezzz... I assume all this talk over this is in fun and not taken seriously.

Really people...

I've been around quite a while and seen this kind of crap has been tried to implement against the tape recorder, cassette tapes and VCRs... IT NEVER WORKS and is just plain stupidity... I've not yet know any of this kind of crap to ever stop people from recording, copying, etc...

Quite honestly, the music and movie industry "Unions" as I like to call them are the real crooks in most cases... Most of their ideas all infringe on the constitutional rights of people and I doubt things like this will ever go through. It’s a sign of a corrupted monopoly trying desperately to cling on to their riches That and the fact that the people who write a lot of the so called "illegal" software are a lot smarter then these guys and will have a solution out in weeks... (those who really want it will always find a way)...

Bottom line, AMV as a hobby will always be possible... just have to learn a few new tricks every so often :wink:

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Postby trythil » Thu Nov 03, 2005 12:53 am

genestarwind21122 wrote:This seems to be way to over the top to be passed.


They said that about the DMCA, too. Guess what -- it passed!

As far as your other questions:

IT DOESN'T MATTER. I don't see why this is so hard to understand.

If this passes, future technologies will have these safeguards built in. AT SOME POINT, you may want to upgrade -- say, to make use of a new technology. (This is not a fantastic scenario; new compression technologies routinely require more processing power, for example.)

But the new devices you can buy will be locked down like this, and thus will you have to submit to these limitations. Or not use those technologies at all, and thus limit yourself.

As far as the "well, it'll just be broken" argument goes:

Vlad G Pohnert wrote:Really people...

I've been around quite a while and seen this kind of crap has been tried to implement against the tape recorder, cassette tapes and VCRs... IT NEVER WORKS and is just plain stupidity... I've not yet know any of this kind of crap to ever stop people from recording, copying, etc...


EXACTLY. It DOESN'T -- people find ways around it.

BUT, two points:

Why would you ALLOW it to happen in the first place?

Why are you so complacent? (Besides the fact that you're Canadian.)

Flint the Dwarf wrote:Oh come on, is it really that surprising?


Yes, it is. I'm amazed at the number of people here who can't seem to see past stuff like the above, or cannot/will not apply this legislation to fields outside of AMVs. Like software development. (Given how much free/open source stuff is used here, I find that quite surprising, too.)
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Postby SnhKnives » Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:11 am

in Soviet Russia....DVD RECORDS YOU!
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Postby Vlad G Pohnert » Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:15 am

trythil wrote:[BUT, two points:

Why would you ALLOW it to happen in the first place?

Why are you so complacent? (Besides the fact that you're Canadian.)



Well, the answer to that would be because your such a rebel :wink:

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Postby trythil » Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:16 am

Another thing:

Breaking these measures only gives the MPAA/RIAA/whoever credibility when they say "We need this to protect our products from pirates".

We know that's bullshit. But by breaking their legally sanctioned protections -- no matter how stupid they are -- you are helping them.

Why does anyone think this is a good course of action?
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Postby trythil » Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:21 am

Vlad G Pohnert wrote:
trythil wrote:[BUT, two points:

Why would you ALLOW it to happen in the first place?

Why are you so complacent? (Besides the fact that you're Canadian.)



Well, the answer to that would be because your such a rebel :wink:

Vlad


No. Exactly the opposite.

I'd rather live with laws that make sense -- in this context, laws that actually strike a balance between the interests of big media and the individual creator.

This law doesn't, which is why I want it gone. I'm trying to point out the evils of such a bill to get more support.

That isn't rebellious behavior. That's just democracy -- or, well, that's what democracy should be.
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Postby Vlad G Pohnert » Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:33 am

trythil wrote:Another thing:

Breaking these measures only gives the MPAA/RIAA/whoever credibility when they say "We need this to protect our products from pirates".

We know that's bullshit. But by breaking their legally sanctioned protections -- no matter how stupid they are -- you are helping them.

Why does anyone think this is a good course of action?


Who says anything about breaking them... I don't agree with them, but I don't go out of my way to break them... I think we are all guilty of breaking them in some way (even thier employees are probably guilty of that probably)...

So as long as they think we are "stealing" thier profits (every penny) they will always be fighting to have total control over the video/audio media. And that's something they will never have unless everyone give in (and tjat's not gonna happen any time soon).

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Postby madbunny » Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:35 am

It works like this:

A law is passed that seems to make sense to most people, and generally lets you control what happens. Say for example: A password for your television that lets you block out the Sopranos so your kid doesn't watch mobsters doing their thing, or the porn channels when you're not home. Most people don't really have a problem with that idea conceptually. The problem is that if you take that very same idea 'just a little' further to the next device say your Tivo, that tells it it can't record those same shows if they're blocked, that also makes a sort of sense right? Now using those same analogies, imagine that a show is broadcast with an automatic blocking flag: say for example the Grammies, or a live concert that might be resold later on. Suddenly, you can't record what you want, it is no longer something that you can control. In other words, an outside person is deciding what you can and can't keep. It isn't a huge step past this to imagine that motherboards will have similar chips in them. Imagine if your soundcard stored your DRM instead of your hard drive, would you really notice? So long as it didn't impact you, would you even care?

Can this sort of thing be hacked? Sure. I have a software program that uses a hardward dongle (really, that's what it's called) but whenever I put it on the back of my students computers they steal them for some stupid reason, leaving me with 3K of useless software. Solution: a crack. I'd rather just have skipped that step in the first place.

Personally I see that argument that piracy is stealing from the major media as a bit sketchy, but still logical. They want to protect their interests. Their interests naturally being the ability to make as much money as is humanly possible. If there was a way they could get you to just send them money for nothing at all I'm sure that would be just fine for them.

As I understand it, one of the major sticking points on the whole HD-DVD and Blu-ray high def disks isn't the technical issues so much as the wrangling over the Digital Rights Managements that are to be put into them. You can also bet that as the US goes increasingly digital in it's broadcasting that these things are going to come up more and more.

For everyone that figures they'll just stick with the tried and true: remember things change. Before x-vid and H.263 there was Mpeg. MP3 might be around for a while, but what happens if Ipod no longer accepts mp3 instead of some better format?
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Postby trythil » Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:25 am

Vlad G Pohnert wrote:
trythil wrote:Another thing:

Breaking these measures only gives the MPAA/RIAA/whoever credibility when they say "We need this to protect our products from pirates".

We know that's bullshit. But by breaking their legally sanctioned protections -- no matter how stupid they are -- you are helping them.

Why does anyone think this is a good course of action?


Who says anything about breaking them... I don't agree with them, but I don't go out of my way to break them...


When was the last AMV you made with ripped DVD footage?

If inane copy protection mechanisms didn't exist, you wouldn't have had to do that. If we had a more balanced copyright mechanism -- Lessig's proposal that derivatives of copyrighted works be allowed given that flat 1% of net profits from derivative works shall be held in escrow for a copyright owner is a good place to start -- you wouldn't necessarily be violating international copyright law, either.

But they do exist, and we have to break them to do what we want to do. Thus does the cycle continue.

The way to fix this is to fix it at its root, not sit back and wait for cracking tools.

So as long as they think we are "stealing" thier profits (every penny) they will always be fighting to have total control over the video/audio media. And that's something they will never have unless everyone give in (and tjat's not gonna happen any time soon).


The answer to that, again, isn't to wait for cracking tools and procedures to emerge. The answer is re-education, and petitioning for change is part of that re-education process.

Obviously, that petitioning obviously can't involve reasons like "I want to be able to distribute as many copies of X's work Y as I want, for my monetary profit" -- I think we can say that that's wrong. What we can say is wrong are the usual problems, because they always exist: restriction of creativity, innovation, and so forth.
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Postby trythil » Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:26 am

trythil wrote:
Vlad G Pohnert wrote:
trythil wrote:Another thing:

Breaking these measures only gives the MPAA/RIAA/whoever credibility when they say "We need this to protect our products from pirates".

We know that's bullshit. But by breaking their legally sanctioned protections -- no matter how stupid they are -- you are helping them.

Why does anyone think this is a good course of action?


Who says anything about breaking them... I don't agree with them, but I don't go out of my way to break them...


When was the last AMV you made with ripped DVD footage?

If inane copy protection mechanisms didn't exist, you wouldn't have had to do that.


I should have preceded that with "Did you have to break CSS to do this? If so, you've gone out of your way to break them."
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Postby devilmaykickass » Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:36 am

SQ wrote:
devilmaykickass wrote:I'm praying that it does get passed.


0o Why?

I really hope that was a typo.

No, it wasn't a typo.

And "why" you ask? Because like Otohiko already stated, in Soviet Russia, the rights copy you.
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