Proposal for Honest Op week

godix · Post by **godix** » Sun Apr 24, 2005 4:12 pm

My problem with this idea, and part of the reason I don't give unasked for ops, is that if I give someone scores I consider decent but are below the sites average (an 8 is below site average for every catagory) then the reaction is 'he gave me low scores, he must think I really suck' even though from my standard of scoring an 8 means 'decent but not great'. By suggesting giving unsolicited ops you're setting people up for a lot of misunderstanding and hard feelings.

So do what I, and several others I've noticed, do. Offer free ops in the op exchange board and let people know ahead of time you give lower than site average scores so they don't get suprised by it. You shouldn't experinece (much) complaining about it that way, they knew what they were getting into to begin with. You'll get a wide mix from the pretty awful up to the great to view so things will slowly (very slowly given how long I take) start to lower the sites average if enough people do it.

trythil · Post by **trythil** » Sun Apr 24, 2005 4:14 pm

I say we just randomize the current scores in the database, as it is easier, requires no human intervention, and will more immediately accomplish your goal of re-establishing the bell curve centered around 5.

Since, you know, it's that important.

(Don't attempt to argue that this is a way to make opinions more useful. It's not, because an average is an average no matter how it is normalized. If you wanted to help out, you might propose a way to enforce that people leave coherent, thoughtful, written suggestions in the comments box.)

Al'x · Post by **Al'x** » Sun Apr 24, 2005 4:21 pm

Another reason not to leave random opinions : some people don't read them! The only time I leave an op outside the opinion exchange is to people who I know actually want them.

Bashar: If you want to make the op system more "honest" try this : leave more comments! If you have less than 100 word count average, that hurts the site way more than an inflated average for opinions.

James Sharp · Post by **James Sharp** » Sun Apr 24, 2005 4:40 pm

well said. i value a score of 10 with little comments FAR LESS than i value an average or even low score with a well thought out and explained opinion..witch brings us back to the infinitly said line in the org.. its in the guides. if people wanna help with opionions then they should read the guides on how to make good opinions and live by that. if giving detailed opinions means they give less opinions. then that would help also. because it would decrease self pimpage and we are all guily of that

BasharOfTheAges · Post by **BasharOfTheAges** » Sun Apr 24, 2005 4:58 pm

This wasn't just a suggestion of the way people act about opinions. In fact this wasn't about why opinion scores are inflated at all.

My entire idea here is to get others (and myself) to get together and choose a week that we can randomly op as many vids as possible. The focus has changed from this somewhat though.

Back to the topic... would anyone be interested actually doing this for a week? Not changing the system in it's entirety (which is something that needs to be done by the mods), but attempting to do somethign positive to reform the scoring system on our own.

It might not work to a desired conclusion, but i feel every little bit can help.

Godix, I score quite harshly as well and have tried this method (picking random videos to op) in the past. I think it may fit your style. I honestly think the opinion system would benifit from more people like you.

Flint the Dwarf · Post by **Flint the Dwarf** » Sun Apr 24, 2005 5:27 pm

I think you should shift your purpose to that of assisting creators who normally get very few reviews (same action, different intent). Think of it practically. Your intervention will not mean anything the way you're going at it. The site average means nothing, and most people know it's inflated. Even if you manage to lower the average, it won't affect any single person on this website. It won't make a video that was given unreasonably high scores any more accurate, nor will it work that way for a video given unreasonably low scores. And it won't help people find good videos, either, because there will still be plenty of videos that were graded differently.

In the end, what matters most is how you explain your scores. The whole system's strongest aspect is the explanation, not the scores. You won't change the Top 10% or the Top Star Scale. All you can hope to do, really, is just help the relatively few creators that you will reach with honest opinions. Still an admirable goal, in my opinion.

downwithpants · Post by **downwithpants** » Sun Apr 24, 2005 5:53 pm

Al'x wrote:I really don't see why there are a few people that have to keep all their given op scores averaging at 5.5, and where most people give a 10, they only give a 8.

1. using 5.5=average allows you to have equal standard deviations in both directions, whereas using 8=average forces you to shrink your standard deviation above the average while expanding shrinking your st dev below the average. in other words, with 8=average you will have poor discrimination between your above-average videos (because they can only be given scores 9 or 10), and fine discrimination between your below-average videos (because they can be given scores 1-7).

2. if everyone used 8=average, the site average would go up to 9, because of the top-videos-getting-more-opinions effect. once the site averages reached 9, everyone would start using 9=average. this is why you really can't use the site-reported averages as the average of all videos.

Al'x wrote:You aren't helping anybody! You are just making the person you gave an op to wish that somebody who scores like most people do had left an op instead of somebody who thinks leaving all low scores will somehow help this site. If you leave scores which reflect the site average, whoever you gave an op to will appreciate the opinion more.

high scores may be rewarding, but they don't help anyone improve.

Al'x wrote:Even if 5.5=average scores does help the site if everybody does it, in reality this doesn't actually help since there will always be people who give 8=average scores.

by the same reasoning, you could say the people who give "8=average" scores aren't helping anyone because there are people giving "5.5=average" scores.

BasharOfTheAges wrote:My entire idea here is to get others (and myself) to get together and choose a week that we can randomly op as many vids as possible. The focus has changed from this somewhat though.

Back to the topic... would anyone be interested actually doing this for a week? Not changing the system in it's entirety (which is something that needs to be done by the mods), but attempting to do somethign positive to reform the scoring system on our own.

i'd been doing this until this school year, but haven't given many ops since then because of schoolwork keeping me busy. it would be nice to start again after finals (late may). if this random-op giving is going to be formalized at that time, let me know.

dkellis · Post by **dkellis** » Sun Apr 24, 2005 7:11 pm

Al'x wrote:I really don't see why there are a few people that have to keep all their given op scores averaging at 5.5, and where most people give a 10, they only give a 8.

Mainly because it says right there on the opinions page that a 5 is considered the "average" score.

I figure that just because so many people don't seem to follow that guideline doesn't mean that I shouldn't either. A lot of people don't seem to have read many of the guides, after all.

Resk · Post by **Resk** » Sun Apr 24, 2005 7:27 pm

I think this is a good idea, although I don't think it will get the reaction that is intended. People will just complain MORE about getting bad scores, when really we're just giving them what they deserve. I mean, I agree completely, and I'm in the same boat as some of you. I always opinionate honestly, and often I give hard reviews. Perhaps that's why my highest mark ever given was a 7.83....

Al'x · Post by **Al'x** » Sun Apr 24, 2005 7:35 pm

2. if everyone used 8=average, the site average would go up to 9, because of the top-videos-getting-more-opinions effect. once the site averages reached 9, everyone would start using 9=average. this is why you really can't use the site-reported averages as the average of all videos.

That's true! =o I remember when I first came to this site, the average score was 8.29 or something, but now it is 8.35!!

But here is an example of why I don't use 5.5=average. For sound quality, 9/10 times I can't find a flaw in the audio. I have bad speakers and often I can mistake a flaw for a feature of the music so I give the benefit of the doubt. Therefore I give these all 10. 10 = flawless. If there is a flaw, I give something from 1 to 9 depending on how bad the flaw is. But if I wanted 5.5=average I would have to give 6 to a flawless video, then 1 to any flaw, no matter how slight. How can I explain in an op that "your sound is perfect, didn't see any flaws at all" that gives a score of 6?