Honest Opinion, Or Bashing

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Honest Opinion, Or Bashing

Postby FadingSundown » Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:02 pm

Hello,

first off, I wasn't planning to make this thread, but since I am feeling a bit looked down upon, I am making this thread anyway. This is about me, giving my honest opinion on an AMV, and getting an negative, slightly aggressive reaction from the editor on it. Well, that, on itself, did not bother me that much. But now a friend of his (aka a judge on almost all Dutch AMV Conventions) is suddenly starting to bash on my videos. I am not trying to make these editors look bad, but I feel that what his friend is doing now is just unfair and harsh towards me.

The AMV I commented on: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctqxaw5c-Eo
This was the conversation I and the editor had:
Spoiler :
FadingSundown 3 days ago
Hey hey Timmie. To be honest, I didn''\t really like this amv. The book and text effects were nice, but overall this felt lacks and a tad boring. The music is nice, but quite monotone. Some scenes were too sped up and there is no moment of greatness, not in the music and not in the vid. There is no 'epic' moment, there is no explosion of emotions or an announcement of tragedy in the music. I can see the story in the vid, but if feels shallow. This is just my personal opinion ofcourse.

FateTRSC 3 days ago
before you are going this kind of critique try to make this ancient book for yourself I mean its a personal opinion you are judging on taste now not on how it is edited. Sorry but I disagree about the that the music is monotone.
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FadingSundown 3 days ago
I am judging on your editing now. I said the book and text are nice, I didnt give critique on that. But the music you choose, the way you edit clips (speeding up) to it and put them together to make a storyline all falls under the category editing. So I am actually judging on your editing here. The music is nice, but it misses a serious punch, which doesn't do the story you are trying to depict any right.

FateTRSC 3 days ago
Its thats your opinion then I will accept it. Case closed I don't want to disscuss about it.


This was what I received today as a comment on my comment.
Spoiler :
svandenboogaart 2 hours ago
Well Fading, shall we discuss your AMV's next...


Then I got a comments on 2 of my most recent dutch convention amvs.
(since these conversations are in dutch I have translated them)

This is my AMV he commented on: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25RrO3Cwgq8
Spoiler :
svandenboogaart 2 hours ago
Reasonably good concept, but could've been more, sometimes it are just random scenes put together and that feels weird. Beat sync isnt always good. Pity pity pity.

FadingSundown 1 hour ago
Is this all because I gave my honest opinion on Timmie's video? You are backing your friend, and that is okay, but I always give non-biased, honest feedback. You are just bashing now. My Revenge for Yesterday AMV does have a storyline, so when you can give a calm, honest opinion with good arguments and feedback, you can come back.

svandenboogaart 24 minutes ago
Oeh you feel offended, you can also find the opinion I gave here on the judging form, if you would've asked for it, you immediately would've been able to read the comments and points you could improve, but for the past couple of years you never asked for it.


To clarify why I never asked for feedback, my sister has done that for her AMVs on different cons, but never got an reply. So I think it would've been pointless. Nevertheless, its okay if he brings that forth, but that is no reason to bash on me for that because he is a judge.

This is my other AMV he commented on: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bv-pdr3FgSU
Spoiler :
svandenboogaart 2 hours ago
Okay, no story, only fighting scenes. No wonder that I quickly fell asleep.

On this comment.... Well, my amv does have a storyline. Sure, for the people who dont know the anime it might be harder to follow/see, but it is present. And I think he is just being rude here.

I am not really sure what to do with it, but going to the staff of the AMV conventions wont do anything, because svandenboogaart (and sometimes Timmie too) are judges there. They have also been around the AMV scene of the dutch conventions for years, so they have connections with the hosts and such. I am considering to stop making AMVs for dutch conventions, because I have the feeling that the judges aren't editors themselves, and that they are a bit biased.

I would like to hear your opinion on this. You don't need to talk to them or anything, but I just want to know if I am in the wrong here, if I replied rudely or if my comments are justified.
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Re: Honest Opinion, Or Bashing

Postby TheAMVShow » Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:49 pm

You are completely justified. You didn't even need to state that it was your personal opinion, you hit the nail on the head with your critique.

Some people don't value good criticism and those are the types that are only be good amongst their inner circle.

As for the retaliation, he's only making a fool of himself. Don't even stress about it.
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Re: Honest Opinion, Or Bashing

Postby Taite » Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:04 pm

The way you presented your opinion to start with, nothing is wrong with it. You're very calm and even say it's your personal opinion, so when he responds with:
before you are going this kind of critique try to make this ancient book for yourself I mean its a personal opinion you are judging on taste now not on how it is edited. Sorry but I disagree about the that the music is monotone.


I'm really quite irked. All opinions given are personal opinions, even if they are about the editing, it's still a personal opinion. Right here he's lost the argument to me.
For his little buddy to come and stick up for him is annoying as shit too, I would definitely loose my cool, yet you handled it very well. His statements themselves aren't straight up bashing you and they can be considered reasonable even, but they focus on the negative and the only purpose of them is to "get back" at you, so to me they're invalid.

I agree, his second comment is just being rude.

I am considering to stop making AMVs for dutch conventions, because I have the feeling that the judges aren't editors themselves, and that they are a bit biased.

On this bit, I always encourage people to spread their amvs to a wider audience. I watched the first video of yours that you linked and I'm glad to have found another editor to watch. When you only stick to one group of people, well, I just think it's silly. There are conventions all across the world, and I can only imagine if you submitted your amv to one of their conventions, then most certainly it would be a biased opinion. They already are.


One thing that irks me to no end is when people don't accept criticism from others just because they're not editors, or not even what they'd consider "good editors," so I disagree with that one point in the quote above, but agree with them being biased 100%
His defense also follows this idea when he says :
before you are going this kind of critique try to make this ancient book for yourself

Like really? I can appreciate effort, but to negate someone's opinion by saying they couldn't do it themselves means nothing: I could make the coolest effect in the world and it will still be shit if it has no relevancy to the amv. In his it was fine, I don't really care for it, but point being, he's defending himself by saying "do it yourself," which is annoying and blech.


This whole thing bothers me to no end because so many editors are so childish and defensive. They can't just take criticism they don't like and say "no thank you," they always have to defend it, which is ok sometimes, if you're not a little bitch.
My advice to you: expand your horizons. I'm all for participating in local conventions and anything else more local, but screw having to deal with them. I wouldn't reply any further to their comments; you handled them well, and you should be done with them. Don't give them what they want. People will always dislike your works, but if they dislike it simply because they dislike you, then screw that, their opinion isn't valid.
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Re: Honest Opinion, Or Bashing

Postby Kisagi » Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:36 pm

To me as of what Taite said "you are not wrong"

When he commented on your video it didn't look like criticism, it was more like trying to start an argument (which is childish). There wasn't a reason to back up his friend since you mentioned "This is just my personal opinion ofcourse". When replying back after a few times I think you should just stop because he won't listen to anything you say. To me you pretty much handled it maturely and won the argument without saying insults (which will make things worse). I've seen these types of discussions before and people won't just stop replying back making it look like a spam and eventually you will get tons of people into the argument.
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Re: Honest Opinion, Or Bashing

Postby AngelDragoon » Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:39 pm

Your critique of his video was an honest and fair opinion on the matter. He was right to say that it was an opinion, but that's what judging of a hobby mostly is--a subjective assessment of various aspects. Of course, pointing out technical things, like aspect ratio, frame rate, etc., is something that doesn't require an opinion, but these sort of videos aren't just judged on their technical merits. That's something that everyone in this hobby has to come to terms with at some point or another. People need to learn that getting offended when not everyone likes their work is going to cause them and everyone else some serious headaches. :nono:

I believe that the guy who responded to your own videos would have had some potentially good opinions if he hadn't added the whole "pity" nonsense at the end. It turns a critique in to a clear, childish attempt at trying to get under someone's skin that completely negates their credibility, regardless of whether they were trying to be helpful or not. Do I think you should have responded to him? Meh, no, I wouldn't have, at least not so vehemently. Just a flat 'thanks' is enough; at least then you don't give him the satisfaction of getting a rise out of you. Obviously this is what he was trying to do, given the second comment he posted.

The guy who you first wrote to it handled your criticism by just trying to say "agree to disagree" in a way, which was fine...Quite defensive, but at least he didn't rage at you. I should hope, however, that he didn't ask his friend to try and upset you; give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he didn't. The last thing you want is to perpetuate misunderstandings to the point of continuous, stupid harassment on their part over nothing.

Also, no, I don't think you should stop making amvs for Dutch conventions. No one is going to hold THAT MUCH of a grudge over about four comments on youtube. Just brush this incident off and keep doing what you do. :beer:
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Re: Honest Opinion, Or Bashing

Postby Kimberly » Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:11 pm

Some editors just can't handle criticism and get butt hurt over anything "negative" that's said about their video and/or editing. Don't feel bad or upset, they're just childish.
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Re: Honest Opinion, Or Bashing

Postby slimed » Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:43 pm

a lot of editors on yt especially are so used to praise and having their hand held that any constructive criticism given is negatively received. i wouldn't look too far into it.

the "Well Fading, shall we discuss your AMV's next..." and "before you are going this kind of critique try to make this ancient book for yourself" comments are particularly dumb; you can give valid critique on a film or song or any piece of media of any artistic medium without having made a film etc yourself.

(and their video isn't good)
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Re: Honest Opinion, Or Bashing

Postby FadingSundown » Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:05 am

@ TheAMVShow
Spoiler :
I aim to give good feedback, so thank you. But I think it is necessary to say it is my personal opinion, because it sometimes takes off a negative attitude/vibe that criticism can give off if misunderstood/misinterpreted.


@ Taite
Spoiler :
When FateTRSC commented on my feedback I was quite surprised, because normally he asks for my opinion and appreciates it. While now he did not even want to hear it.
His statements themselves aren't straight up bashing you and they can be considered reasonable even, but they focus on the negative and the only purpose of them is to "get back" at you


I totally agree with you, it could’ve been good feedback, but the way he brings it is wrong. I believe all feedback is good, be it praise or things that require improvement. As long as it is brought in a friendly matter. You don’t want the creator to hate what he made, but to motivate him to improve.

One thing that irks me to no end is when people don't accept criticism from others just because they're not editors, or not even what they'd consider "good editors," so I disagree with that one point in the quote above, but agree with them being biased 100%


I do accept criticism from not editors and editors alike, but very often on the dutch conventions I have the feeling that good, solid editing is overlooked. And I am not talking about my own videos here, but over amvs from MarikoAMV, for example. And when you hear from a judge’s mouth that non-familiar animes will do well with the judges, better than SAO, Naruto or Bleach and such, then it feels so… Not right. Because then it feels like they are judging solely on taste, and don’t even look at the technical aspects or editing efforts. This might not count for all judges, but it does bother me.

My advice to you: expand your horizons. I'm all for participating in local conventions and anything else more local, but screw having to deal with them. I wouldn't reply any further to their comments; you handled them well, and you should be done with them. Don't give them what they want. People will always dislike your works, but if they dislike it simply because they dislike you, then screw that, their opinion isn't valid.


Thank you for your advice. I shouldn’t let it get to me like it does, but try my best on other conventions. Your advice is wise, and I will start searching for a con I can enter. Stupidly enough, this whole thing made me want to edit.


@ Kisagi
Spoiler :
When replying back after a few times I think you should just stop because he won't listen to anything you say. To me you pretty much handled it maturely and won the argument without saying insults (which will make things worse). I've seen these types of discussions before and people won't just stop replying back making it look like a spam and eventually you will get tons of people into the argument.


The discussion is indeed getting worse at the moment ><. Not between me and him, but between him and someone who is backing me. Which is resulting in an lenghty discussion with strange, often wrong accusations/assumptions. And more negativity on my amv from svandenboogaart. I do have to say the person who is backing me also reacted aggressive towards svandenboogaart. I am not trying to say pyromani’s actions are good, but he is a friend of mine and he knows that stupid things like this get to me. He was with me yesterday, and I knew that he was going to react, but truthfully, I did not feel like stopping him because I was still a bit agitated myself.


Svandenboogaart’s comments (the negativity towards my amv, I let the discussion between him and pyromani out of it):
Spoiler :
svandenboogaart
Tja the truth can hurt. She wanted an honest comment, so I gave it to her.
~
If you are not waiting for an opinion on your amvs then you should turn off the comment section (she doesn’t so that invites me to give feedback). Why is my comment not based on truth, I get tired of the amv, which is 82,8% made out of action scenes (you can do the math yourself), Yes, I say negative things, to show her that her AMVs are also not free of mistakes (and I am have been keeping this to myself for years). If you give critique on someone you should receive it yourself too.
quote]

He makes it sound like I see myself like some kind of saint or something. I never claimed something idiotic as finding my own amvs perfect. They are not, I edit for fun. Its my hobby, but he treats me like Im the one in the wrong. I have no problem with feedback at all, as long as it is brought in a proper, polite way.

@ AngelDragoon
Spoiler :

I believe that the guy who responded to your own videos would have had some potentially good opinions if he hadn't added the whole "pity" nonsense at the end.

I agree, I can see where his feedback is coming from, my amvs are not perfect. His comment wouldn’t have been bad feedback i fit hadn’t been brought to me so rudely.

Also, no, I don't think you should stop making amvs for Dutch conventions. No one is going to hold THAT MUCH of a grudge over about four comments on youtube. Just brush this incident off and keep doing what you do.


Thank you : ). I will keep on editing ofcourse and follow Taite’s advice; I’ll keep on editing for dutch conventions but I won’t deal with them anymore. I’ll try my best : ).


@ Kimberly
Spoiler :
Thanks : ). I’m the kind of person who stuff like this gets to ><.


@ Slimed
Spoiler :
a lot of editors on yt especially are so used to praise and having their hand held that any constructive criticism given is negatively received. i wouldn't look too far into it.

I think a healthy dose of calm, non-biased feedback is good for every editor. I actually found that some yt editors really appreciate it. One even said that he liked praise, but could do more with feedback. Timmie usually appreciates my feedback, that is why it actually surprised me he reacted so negative.
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Re: Honest Opinion, Or Bashing

Postby NotReallyHere » Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:12 am

Oh boy.... looks like I've found myself a bit of a wasp's nests here, but I'll get involved in the discussion anyway. Particularly because I don't want this to spiral more out of control (since I do know and like all three of you).

First off, as far as your criticism goes it is fine. Sure, it's negative (as in: you don't like it) but normally that wouldn't be a problem. Timmie is having some personal issues at the moment (more details in PM, don't want to put that on a public forum) which is probably where the extremely defensive reaction by him and in extend Sander's comments on your videos originate from. I agree that Sander's comments are meant only to spark anger though, so I would just ignore him for now. (Going by the good ol' policy of "don't feed the trolls"). Assuming I'm correct in my assumptions about this situation it'll probably drift over in a couple of months (or when certain criteria have been met).

As far as the con judging thing goes, I'm pretty sure there are only two cons (Tsunacon and Abunai) that use behind the scenes judging. Personally, I'm not a big fan of those judging types either but that's a different story. What I mean to say here is: I wouldn't stop making amvs for dutch cons, it's always nice to have you there and if your fate in the judging system is dwindling there is always Animecon (where the judging is done by the competitors and audience).

For now I would just stay away from Timmie's AMV's and focus on different things, I'm pretty sure this is a temporary thing. Also, if Sander persists in making these rather rude comments on your vids feel free to contact me as a neutral party, I think he'd be willing to listen to me. On that note, I think it would be wise to tell pyromani to stop responding to Sander for now, nothing can be gained by doing that. (Pyromani's reaction in that case is understandable, don't get me wrong. I just don't think continueing this will really help.)

TL;DR: It's about them, not about you. Keep your chin up and keep walking forward.
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Re: Honest Opinion, Or Bashing

Postby Radical_Yue » Fri Nov 01, 2013 6:53 am

Criticism is fine and you're fine. They overreacted as most newer youtube-only editors do. Now, I don't hate all youtube editors or anything but as I've said multiple times, they're just not super used to criticism like those who are from editing communities such as this one.

The only thing that I would try to avoid in the future is attacking their taste. By mentioning the music was monotonous outright, that comes off as a slight against the editor themselves, like they have bad taste. I would recommend hiding in plain sight and just sticking with what you said in the second half of your critique where you mentioned that since there is no breakout point in the song itself, the video is lacking this element. That conveys the problem with the music without directly saying that it doesn't work. And if you feel it is a combo that just doesn't work AT ALL then the best way to critique it is either by going 100% technical and not mentioning sources or just by saying "Sorry, I'm not feeling it. I don't think I'm the right person to beta test for you." Unless you're required to judge a concept, say for a contest where concept/theme (Org Editor for example) is a major issue, then avoid it as much as possible.
Not a huge deal but treading lightly around things like that helps deal with the people that run around screaming about their "artistic vision" and such. Believe me, I've learned this from experience >>

Overall, with editors like that, it was obvious from the first reply back what would happen. I have been in many a conversation where I mentioned something offhand (say, an effect) is bad and then they turned on me. "WELL, HOW MANY SUBZ/VIEWS DO UUUU HAVE? SHOW US UR GODLY VIDEOS LOLOLOL"
There is no way in hell to win with that reasoning because I mean, fuck, criticism works the same way no matter where you go. If a food critique leaves a negative review then the restaurant will either take the advice and improve their quality or brush it off as someone who doesn't even cook being a big fat stoopid head as they go under.

Since you know their bashing is straight out of hate, confronting them about it will do absolutely nothing. You're attacking stoopid with reason and you can't fix stupid. The best way to go about it is just to have no reaction at all. If you normally respond to all your youtube comments then just leave a simple "Thanks for watching." and move on with it. Lead by example. It sucks but sometimes you have to be the one to take the high road.

Now, if you think that this friend who is a judge will create a bias towards your videos in future contests taking place in your local area, then you should attempt to contact the coordinator if the attacks don't let up. I hate to say it but a VERY large number of AMV contests have biases. Either for or against sources, editors, etc... This is something I've learned from sitting in on many a judging session for multiple cons and has led to my respect for certain conventions either dropping to nothing or skyrocketing. The only way to fix bias in a convention/contest setting is to either jump in and try to fix it yourself by becoming part of the process or seek out a place that DOES appreciate hard work as opposed to looking at the entry form and writing it off before giving it a decent chance. It sucks when it's your local convention that is doing this but if you're that passionate about seeing a contest done right then get in there and make it awesome.
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Re: Honest Opinion, Or Bashing

Postby [madaraxD] » Fri Nov 01, 2013 7:22 am

When a critique is constructive you should be grateful, otherwise just ignore it, some ppl are just meh. And well, i got some comments like that after comment some vids in youtube, isnt a big deal anyway, i read them, i see if they are right and nothing more :3 dont worry too much about it ;-;
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Re: Honest Opinion, Or Bashing

Postby FadingSundown » Fri Nov 01, 2013 10:03 am

The only thing that I would try to avoid in the future is attacking their taste. By mentioning the music was monotonous outright, that comes off as a slight against the editor themselves, like they have bad taste. I would recommend hiding in plain sight and just sticking with what you said in the second half of your critique where you mentioned that since there is no breakout point in the song itself, the video is lacking this element. That conveys the problem with the music without directly saying that it doesn't work. And if you feel it is a combo that just doesn't work AT ALL then the best way to critique it is either by going 100% technical and not mentioning sources or just by saying "Sorry, I'm not feeling it. I don't think I'm the right person to beta test for you."


Thank you Yue, you're absolutely right about the taste part. It wouldve been better to only say the music lacks a breakout point, instead of also saying it is monotone. From NotReallyHere I got an PM, which also mentioned that Timmie feels like I have something against his AMVs. This is not the case, but I think he thinks that because I give milder feedback on other dutch amvs that entered in a contest. Most of those editors are quite new to the editing scene, so I tend to explicitly focus on the things I liked from their videos while giving a few things they could slowly improve on.

The only way to fix bias in a convention/contest setting is to either jump in and try to fix it yourself by becoming part of the process or seek out a place that DOES appreciate hard work as opposed to looking at the entry form and writing it off before giving it a decent chance. It sucks when it's your local convention that is doing this but if you're that passionate about seeing a contest done right then get in there and make it awesome.

That is actually not a bad idea xD. For the next year I think im going to stick to entering contests, but after that I could definitly join the judges and do my best to make it better.

@ madaraXD
Thanks Mike. Because of all the replies here I now know that going into discussion won't fix it. So I will start ignoring it, and if it happens again in the future I know what to do, because not replying is the best solution. It kind of got to me because I know both of them, I see them every con I go to ><. I should go to foreign cons...
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Re: Honest Opinion, Or Bashing

Postby Cecco » Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:25 pm

Don't worry and go ahead. =)
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Re: Honest Opinion, Or Bashing

Postby -Nfp » Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:14 pm

yolo it was an honest opinion, in my opinion
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