How has the AMV landscape changed?

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Re: How has the AMV landscape changed?

Postby MimS » Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:07 pm

And yeah I have absolutely no intention to "bother" original authors, quite the contrary. As much as I can, I try to keep all infos about what I use so that people can find where it comes from
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Re: How has the AMV landscape changed?

Postby Chained(E)Studio » Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:58 pm

Kionon wrote:we are not doing anything wrong.


Its not that we are doing anything wrong per say. It not about whether you, yourself buys the anime. Its different if you make AMVs in the comfort of your own home, burn them to CDs/iPods and take your CDs/iPods to cons. We are massively distributing the anime/music without the right to. Yes, its mixed into our own stories, music and we are doing it because we love the shows we watch. In the end we are still distributing/giving it to others for free.

Hundreds of us edit and share our work massively online where people can download the AMV, rip the music from it or even cut the footage up to make their own AMVs without purchasing the work.

I personally don't think AMVs or MVs can fall under "fair use". Its different if you're a teacher or student giving a presentation to thousands of people where they walk away without the presentation on a CD. Or maybe you're an artist drawing your favourite characters for an art gallery show where people come, socialize, have a few drinks on you and walk around looking at your work for free.

We ourselves to me are just helping others or aiding in illegal acts and taking the rights of owners away which companies are fighting desperately for.
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Re: How has the AMV landscape changed?

Postby Kevmaster » Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:30 pm

fmf
Last edited by Kevmaster on Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How has the AMV landscape changed?

Postby Chained(E)Studio » Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:04 pm

Kevmaster wrote:
Chained(E)Studio wrote:where people can download the AMV, rip the music from it or even cut the footage up to make their own AMVs without purchasing the work.

It never even once occured to me that anyone would do that. It's not making sense to me. It's much easier to type what you search for in google and click one of the first few links that appear to download the source. And I think that's rather what people would do who'd take the step to download illegally. (Common sense and all) Rather than getting yourself a converter, taking the time to cut off credits audio for example. And in many cases nowadays you don't even get the original song but an edit or even short as hell version. On top of that, of course you'll end up with a bad quality re-encode. The same is about the video source but then you'll never even get the full from an amv. And if you were to get your sources to edit amv's from other amv's...then...what the hell is wrong with you? (This is a no-go in the community anyway as far as I am concerned).

I think it rather is the opposite. We encourage people with our work to may get interested into the anime or music source making them buy these. (I did buy quite a lot because I found it to be interesting in amv's I saw)


An example because its obviously needed >.>

You make an AMV, and 100 people download the AMV.

40 of those people go out and buy the anime because of your AMV - you encouraged that, woo!
10 of those people go out and buy the music - woot again!

30 of those people burn the music off
-Regardless of whether its right or not. If there is a way to get free music people will do it. So what if you have to get a ripper. I mean nowadays you can just rip music off videos on YouTube in mp3. Who cares if the quality is bad, if your ripping it off obviously that isn't a issue for that individual in the first place.


10 of those people keep the AMV to share with friends
- maybe out of those 10 friends, one keeps it to take the music off. While the other nine buy the music or anime.

10 of those people take the anime off
- Who cares if its taken from other AMVs. People do it, does it really stop them, no? Maybe they take the footage from the AMV and make their own AMVs to just share with friends. They still got the footage for free.


So you made an AMV. Yes, you encouraged 59 people to go out and buy the anime or music but you also helped/aided 41 people get it for free. Maybe 41 people isn't a big deal its lower than half, right? Well, think of this as just one AMV. There are thousands of AMVs available online for this to happen.
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Re: How has the AMV landscape changed?

Postby Athena » Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:58 pm

Before I respond in detail, just tell me one thing: if you think that AMVs do not fall under fair use, are unethical and illegal, and that you deserve to be considered a criminal, why doesn't your moral compass prevent you from making them?

I disagree strongly with everything you've said, but isn't worth it to argue it with someone who either has no moral compass, or is willing to intentionally violate their own moral compass with such ease.
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Re: How has the AMV landscape changed?

Postby butterflo » Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:57 pm

(These can be wrong, different country have different copyright laws)

Wait, I thought the term 'fair use' is applied for the video part only. As long as the video source is transformed and the edit is derivative it'd be fine, that's what I've been thinking.
However quite some portion of AMVs use music as is with not much transformation or edit, it would not fall in fair use area.. and cropping is not really transformative from my point of view.
Whenever I get takedown notices or 3rd party match from Youtube most of them says *audio* part of my video is infringing, because while my video is derivative work, music is actually not.

Distributing or streaming these type of AMVs(video is edited, but audio is cropped or as is) would be technically the same as distributing music in mp3 format.
From this point of view takedown notices doesn't really neglect editor's hard work on video editing, but the audio part of such AMV can be seen as infringing because it is not transformative.
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Re: How has the AMV landscape changed?

Postby Athena » Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:42 am

Combining music with video is transformative because it alters the song's intertextuality and brings new meaning to the lyrics or instrumentals or both. This is why, even without editing the music, it has still be transformed.
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Re: How has the AMV landscape changed?

Postby MimS » Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:20 am

Why the hell are you talking about my moral? ._.
Let's put it simply : I buy animes, I just can't buy them ALL. I love having them, wanna got them all, I just CAN'T, so yeah, it happens I edit animes I don't own, it doesn't mean I have no respect for the author, it just means I don't respect the law and well, these 2 things are clearly different. If I could own every animes I would more than happy.
By the way, even if I do buy animes, I still download them because I don't buy them to "watch" them but because I love them, they're great and I want them as a part of my collection, I don't even open the box unless there are really interesting bonuses in them ._.
Or maybe you want a link to my collection to convince you?

And, not even considering my case, put a lot of french editor in "your editors with no-moral" list 'cause, believe me, most of them don't really give a fuck about animes and, compared to them, I really, really, don't feel guilty at all
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Re: How has the AMV landscape changed?

Postby Athena » Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:56 am

MimS wrote:Why the hell are you talking about my moral? ._.


I am not. Or at least I wasn't. I was responding to Chained(E)Studio who said:

We ourselves to me are just helping others or aiding in illegal acts and taking the rights of owners away which companies are fighting desperately for.


I strongly, strongly disagree with this conclusion, and most likely the premises used to construct it. However, if I accept that at least for Chained, there is a violation of ethical standards or laws, then I must inquire as to why Chained still persists. If the answer is, "because I don't care" there is no point in discussing the issue further.

Let's put it simply : I buy animes, I just can't buy them ALL. I love having them, wanna got them all, I just CAN'T, so yeah, it happens I edit animes I don't own, it doesn't mean I have no respect for the author, it just means I don't respect the law and well, these 2 things are clearly different. If I could own every animes I would more than happy.


It's a matter of opportunity cost. I simply do not accept "can't." I accept "choose not to," I accept "won't," but I do not accept that it is fiscally impossible for you to make a decision that you will edit X, Y, and Z video because you can afford to purchase the anime, but you will not edit A, B, or C video because those sources are too expensive for you. I make that decision. If I really must make a video, if it demands that I make it, and all the good ones do, then I feel a responsibility to go out and purchase the source. This might mean that I have to make other purchases in my life a lower priority. We can only have so many guns and so much butter, we can't have all the guns and all the butter.

By the way, even if I do buy animes, I still download them because I don't buy them to "watch" them but because I love them, they're great and I want them as a part of my collection, I don't even open the box unless there are really interesting bonuses in them ._.


I often watch fansubs and then purchase the anime. I built a hackintosh before I switched over to Mac. I have no issues with try before you buy. I firmly believe that should also be recognised under an appropriate and legitimate copyright system. However, watching the entire 26 episode series and never paying into the system? That I have an issue with. However, that is an altogether other issue. Here I am talking strictly about purchasing source used in transformative, derivative works. The fact that you may choose to download the source after already purchasing it is really irrelevant. Whether you rip it or someone else does, it's not really what I'm talking about as having an ethical issue with. You paid for a copy. That you don't open it and rip it yourself doesn't change the fact you've paid into the system already. You're covered, in my view.

Or maybe you want a link to my collection to convince you?


Unnecessary. You're the one (along with Chained) who suggested we're all pirates. If an editor tells me that she purchased the sources used in the video, I'm going to give her the benefit of the doubt. If, on the other hand, she comes out and says she downloaded the footage without paying into the system, then she's going to hear about. Quite vociferously. And not just by me. It's the cardinal rule of the Org. This is nothing new.

And, not even considering my case, put a lot of french editor in "your editors with no-moral" list 'cause, believe me, most of them don't really give a fuck about animes and, compared to them, I really, really, don't feel guilty at all


Again, the comment about a moral compass was not directed at you. And all I can say is, if all the French editors jumped off a bridge, would you? Sounds a lot cooler now when I get to ask it than when I had to answer it as a nine year old...
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Re: How has the AMV landscape changed?

Postby Emong » Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:29 am

Kionon wrote:
Chained(E)Studio wrote:We ourselves to me are just helping others or aiding in illegal acts and taking the rights of owners away which companies are fighting desperately for.

I strongly, strongly disagree with this conclusion, and most likely the premises used to construct it. However, if I accept that at least for Chained, there is a violation of ethical standards or laws, then I must inquire as to why Chained still persists. If the answer is, "because I don't care" there is no point in discussing the issue further.

It makes sense if you're against privatization/commodification/commercialization of common culture and support other means to finance and distribute stuff like music, movies or anime. In that case you might think you're violating copyrights and what not but see no problems with this. Can't speak for Chained(E)Studio here but to a certain extent I agree with her regarding the illegality of our hobby. I'm not entirely familiar with the legal issues regarding AMVs but applying the fair use category to AMVs sounds, at least intuitively, a bit vague for me too, even if we're not making profit or anything. AMVs are effectively a form of viral advertisement though. I doubt anyone here can deny that we at least help in gaining visibility for anime. I've certainly watched or even bought anime because I saw it in an AMV (although lately I've withdrawn from buying physical copies).
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Re: How has the AMV landscape changed?

Postby MimS » Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:34 am

Well, you don't accept "can't" if you want to, I know where the truth is, fact that I do buy animes as much as I can proves it imho.
About the bridge note : I said most of people I was thinking about don't give a fuck about animes which is not my own case so I'm already not walking blinding in their way (and these people always don't understand why we buy since "god we can get it for free on the Internet", yeah but "author's support dude").

Now, if you can afford buy musics, animes, movies or any other media you like, I'm really really glad for you, I wish I could.

But, really, it's getting "personal", I mean when I say "we're all pirates", I was just saying something that could concern (imo again) a lot of people, not necesarily you or me. To put an end on it, I don't think you, Kionon, are a pirate with what you said, I think I am a pirate legally speaking but there is a difference in pirate acts by appreciating the free access to media and pirate acts just 'cause, deep inside us, we think "if I like it, really, I'll buy it asap".

And about the promoting aspect : I did watch animes thanks to AMVs, I did listen to new artists thanks to AMVs, I did buy some of them and I did just download some of them. That's how it is.
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Re: How has the AMV landscape changed?

Postby Athena » Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:01 am

Emong wrote:It makes sense if you're against privatization/commodification/commercialization of common culture and support other means to finance and distribute stuff like music, movies or anime.


I very much am, coming from a literary background where intertexuality demands a certain ability to coopt and transform previous works. We see it first in epic poetry, and later in philosophical discourses, novels, and then into visual art. I consider the commodification off all possible uses of previous works as dangerous and threatening towards the free expression of creativity. This disturbs me greatly. It disturbs me even more when people buy into the idea that transformative works, part of the human experience for thousands of years, should be highly restricted based on a pure profit motive.

I'm not entirely familiar with the legal issues regarding AMVs but applying the fair use category to AMVs sounds, at least intuitively, a bit vague for me too, even if we're not making profit or anything.


Actually, fair use covers transformative works for purposes of literary, creative, or social commentary. I've already expressed how my videos come about and why I feel so compelled to make them. And this is certainly a form of literary commentary for me. I make videos because the combination of the editing and music choice communicates certain ideas and views I have about the original work. This is precisely what fair use is stipulated for. Most people only think in terms of parody, but parody is not the only type of literary or social commentary that one might transform a previous work into. A serious character sketch in video is no less a valid form of commentary than is a parody or comedy video about that character or the series in which they appear. They both have creative, artistic, value that is added and deserves protection. To deny that expression is fundamentally flawed.

I'll consider the conversation closed, MimS, I think we have both had our say in regards to each other.
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Re: How has the AMV landscape changed?

Postby JudgeHolden » Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:47 am

AMVs are dead ... It's all about Ponies now anyway. :roll:
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Re: How has the AMV landscape changed?

Postby DJ_Izumi » Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:02 pm

Ya know... I really don't think that certian people in this thread are qualified to even debate the legalities of anime music videos when they don't even seem to understand that copyright piracy, unless on the scale of organized crime, is a violation of civil law and not criminal law...
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Re: How has the AMV landscape changed?

Postby kyle_m » Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:46 pm

wow nothing changes here lemme say smthng... copyracy blablabla. isn't it clear from long ago that there's nothing so much imposed on us than this absolutely defective and inhumanity matter foreign to any kind of culture than laws brought to serve the laziness and greed of some. what arguments do you need?...oh fuck it, this thread's about LANDSCAPE. sorry wha happened ?
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