The Truth about AMVs

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Re: The Truth about AMVs

Postby Arigatomina » Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:02 am

Phantasmagoriat wrote:True Progress is when we ALL agree upon something, and something changes.

This is what I was arguing with because it's my belief that:

Phantasmagoriat wrote:...progress can only occur through struggle/conflict.


I thought we were on opposite sides, but I guess we're in agreement after all. Like you just said, progress can only occur through conflict. You can't have conflict if everyone agrees. Thus you can't have have progress if everyone agrees. Progress comes from compromise, agreeing to disagree and trading things so that everyone gets a little something, not unilateral agreement. Because if there ever was a unilateral agreement, that would be the end of progress until disagreement rears her ugly head again. That's why the earth was flat for so long.

.-.

But, back to the original question...I don't like the word surprise.

Surprise is a gimmick. It's an eyecatcher, something that makes the vid stand out just long enough to make people watch it. Once they've watched it, they'll forget it unless it has something that appeals to them on a personal level. It's the appeal that makes the video good, not the eyecatching gimmick that caught the person's attention in the first place. People talk about videos with a surprising gimmick the same way they talk about movies with a twist ending. But once you've seen the twist, it's only good for sharing with friends who don't know the secret yet. [I believe this is why Castor's newest and last crossover has such mixed reviews. The gimmick is cool to first-time crossover viewers, but it's the fans to whom it really appeals.]

That's why we give more weight to reviewability than we do to originality. It's only original the first time you see it. If you keep watching it after that, then there must be something more than a surprising twist of originality in there. [If you don't think reviewability should be more important than originality, then that's an entirely different discussion I'd be happy to debate.]

Take Dewelopers as an example. For those who are not mentioned in the vid, it's quite a unique video aimed at the community by a member of the community. It's great fun to show people for the first time. Those who wish they had been listed might continue to watch it, and those who are interested in some of the effects used in it might watch it often enough to emulate it, but the main people who enjoy it are the ones listed, the ones it was made for. They have a personal attachment to it. It appeals to them. It's a well-made video, but without that personal appeal, it's not worth watching more than once for the majority of amv fans.

If we have to single down one thing that a video *must* have in order to be good, then I think it has to be appeal. Surprise wanes and grows old with repeated viewings. If surprise or originality was what mattered, then editors wouldn't be able to consider their own videos good because there is nothing in there to surprise the one who made it. They might be surprised at themselves, but not the video. The video is entirely predictable for the one who made it, and for anyone who watches it over and over. They keep watching because it touches something in them, it appeals to them on a personal level.

The problem with this is that one thing won't appeal to everyone (see all my posts in this thread). So even if we agree to tell others that "appeal" is the thing a video must have to be good, it's not like saying "good capture" or "a gimmick". Anyone can do good capture and put a twist or editing gimmick into their video if we tell them "originality or a surprise" is what they need to do for it to be good. Saying "appeal" is necessary is more like telling people to make fun videos for those who like fun videos. That's a given, a no-brainer, and not very helpful to those who want specifics.

So, while I wouldn't advise telling people that "appeal" is the necessary ingredient, because that's obvious and very vague, I wouldn't tell them that "surprise" is the necessary ingredient, either. Just look at what happened to movies when they all decided a twist ending was necessary - people started expecting the twist and so it was only surprising when they didn't get one.

Another example would be the AMV Hell vids. They're chalked full of surprises, but they're worth rewatching because some of the jokes, the surprises, never get old. They don't get old because they appeal to you on some level, an inside joke that's personally amusing, a song and character matchup that you might have thought of yourself (and thus you're on the same wavelength as the editor who gave it to you), your favorite characters being mocked, your hated characters being trashed, eyecandy that you wish more editors would provide you with (I'm referring to the boob and panty sections, of course), etc etc. The gimmick of making a hell-type vid has gotten old, so the surprise has worn off. But they're still great vids and fun to watch (and make) for those to whom they appeal.
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Re: The Truth about AMVs

Postby gotegenks » Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:24 am

i'm not sure if you understood what he was saying when he meant surprise and that post there was explaining why you didn't like the word surprise, or if you're arguing against what you think surprise HAS to mean, but again, that's not exactly what he's trying to say. And i don't wanna speak for phan, but these are how i see things anyway...

the surprise gives you the emotional appeal, it's what makes you like it, and it's what makes it register as a good video in your mind.why can't surprise be an emotional thing now? i thought that was already established with someone else's response.

nothing's only original the first time you see it, it's only NEW the first time you see it, but it still maintains its originality, even if a million other vids like it come to follow, it may make it seem like its suddenly unoriginal, but it's still just as original as the first time you saw it (seeing as how it was the first) but it's just not NEW anymore.

with my own videos, i'm surprised i could pull off something so AMAZING! good (in my eyes anyway as it reflects my tastes ofc) so i have that surprise and that's what gives my own videos lasting appeal for my own viewings. when a video i do is bad in my opinion, that surprises me because i usually do FANTASTIC! edits and things that i like, so if i mess that up then that's a surprise and i dislike it and so the surprise even gives me a negative emotional reaction.

surprise is why i can love some of my ics almost as much as my best legit videos, because the fact that i only took 2 hours on it adds a mountain of potential for surprise.

a teacher of mine once told me that flaws can be the most endearing parts of someone's art, so i think surprise explains (as has already been said) why something so technically awful can be really enjoyable to some, even highly experienced and educated editors. Because how awful it is and how much your enjoying it are usually conflicting things, so the surprise of having the two emotions simultaneously during one video is a surprise!

twist does not always mean surprise. if you say people were expecting the twist and that's why nobody cared, it's because THEY WERE EXPECTING IT and thus NO SURPRISE FACTOR. Though some people still enjoyed it, most likely people that aren't highly critical about movies and cinema, because they weren't expecting it, they just come along for the ride and play into the movie developers hands and end up enjoying it because they don't know any better. The surprise is still there for them.

Surprise explains why overdone unoriginal BS is really distasteful to those of us to take time to actually learn the hobby and also why those who don't continue to love it, because they don't know any better and they still see it as cool and awesome and new. Yes, new, i've talked with some of them and while they largely believe their genre to be unoriginal in general, they still like to believe they have their own unique styles. they find originality in the tiniest of insignificant things, but they find them and that surprises them so they keep on enjoying them.

again, surprise is not always a conscious "WOAH MAH GAD! didn't see THAT one coming" or "holy shit, are you serious? that vid took a sharp left turn!" phan's already explained as much in like 7 of his posts already, it's a highly subconscious factor that can be induced by originality in ANY DEPARTMENT WHATSOEVER. and originality can also come of making a linkin ball z video that somehow appeals to the org crowd. Nobody is expecting to love it, so when they do, it'll be a surprise, even if it uses much the same formula as ones before it, the originality comes in its excellence as opposed to the slew of shitty linkin ball vids.
it's highly subconscious, so when it happens, depending on how much it hits you whether it be due to how original it was or something that relates to you personally (which would be surprising as well since you most likely wouldn't be expecting it) then you could become emotionally attached to it, and it could give you an emotional response in the future even when you know what'll happen, but the initial surprise created that, it sparked it.

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Re: The Truth about AMVs

Postby Phantasmagoriat » Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:32 pm

HOLY FUCK! WE ARE TREADING SOME REALLY GREAT TERRITORY HERE!

I'll be the first to admit that I'm not fully happy with the word Surprise either; but thus is the limitation of Language.
You could use the word Appeal to a certain extent, but I think Appeal is more of a subset of Surprise. Sort of like a Hierarchy.
I mean, if it appeals to you, that is a Surprise in and of itself. So, for now, Surprise is what I'm going with, but I fully concede to your gripe with the term, so let me explain further:

Back to 'Surprise'
To overcome the limitation of Language, that is why my original idea says we "Expect to be Surprised" which combines with a different word to make something completely different. The concept is a Paradox in and of itself. (I mean, how can you be surprised if you expect it? Combining the two together, and you get my idea of Surprise. Which is a paradox. However, through paradox, I find you typically get closer to any 'truth' that may exist (if you believe in Truth). Let me explain further:

Surprise is almost completely dependant on Expectations.

Examples:

    Twist in Movie (Unexpected) = Surprise
    Twist in Movie (Expected) = No Surprise

    No Twist in Movie (Unexpected) = Surprise
    No Twist in Movie (Expected) = No Surprise

    Reviewability/Repetition = Trying to Understand the Surprise on a more in-depth level

    Retro = Bringing back the Surprise, something you didn't Expect

I think those are the big ones, but I'll just throw out an open question:
Can you come up with any more examples of Surprise? or how Surprise plays a role in the things you enjoy?
(not just in movies/AMVs, but in ANYTHING. It may help if you re-read one of my earlier posts, which I have re-posted below:)
(maybe disregard my views on Universal Truth because not everyone believes in that; after all, I'm just proposing the idea, and sometimes even just the terminology turns people off. When I say Universal Truth, I'm more referring to a set of Realities that fit a particular Grok called "The Universe" [which is our frame-of-reference]). But anyway:
Spoiler :
An Expanded Idea regarding Truth of Entertainment (re-post)
Now, nobody yet has faced my proposed Universal Truth head-on: that a good AMV is one that Surprises you, and I honestly believe that rings true for everyone. If you accept this, than there is the possibility of more Universal Truths as well.

One could take a biological approach and notice how pleasurable things result in the release of chemicals in the brain, which is also present any time you have an Emotional Response, or even a Physical Response to Stimulus. Whether it be the story in a piece of work, where the situation alone is enough to trigger an emotional response; or if the audio/video stimulus is enough to triggers a neural response; you are still somehow "Surprised" by what you are experiencing.

Part of the problem goes back to the Age-Old-Mystery that has eluded mankind for as long as we can remember: "Why do we like music?" Of course, this isn't something that is present in everyone, but we still haven't quite figured it out. Yet, taking my thoughts one step further leads me to believe that good music surprises you in some respects. There are Patterns in the music that we can clearly follow, but when something like a guitar lick or solo, or the melody comes into the picture, it surprises us; and all of the sudden our brains have to try to make sense of it. But once we do make sense of it, we feel pleasure.

The same idea can be extended to narratives or movies, or any situation that has certain assumed Patterns. Perhaps there is a relationship between two people that should progress smoothly as they are lovers. That's the pattern. But, introduce an obstacle, and all of the sudden, the audience is thrown into peril, trying to scramble for ways to overcome the surprise; to make sense of it all. Or think about video games: in the beginning, there is some unaccomplished task, a pattern that is broken somehow by an obstacle, a Surprise; and it is our job to fix it. So, what do we do? We take on the challenge. And we find that we actually like it. So we do it willingly.

I believe the idea of fixing patterns is true of AMVs as well. Once you learn about something like synchronization for instance, you now have a pattern to watch out for, and wish for that pattern to be respected. And when it is respected it makes you happy. But each time a clip makes an attempt to be synchronized, you are momentarily Surprised; and your brain scrambles to make sense of it. And the moment that connection is made, the Universe is restored once again, and it's the best feeling in the world. Same rings true of Story Elements in AMVs-- similar to books, movies and what have you.

This is our Drive to bring Order back to Chaos; to make the world a little more aligned than it started out; to fix things that catch us off guard. Because they Surprised us.

So, is there Truth here? Truth that can extend to all forms of entertainment? Why we enjoy certain things? What makes something Good? What makes anything Good? I'm sure there's probably more to it than I have described so far, but I believe there is Truth somewhere. Something that would Surprise everybody. Something we can all strive for.

And it all starts by identifying what is True for You; and maybe... just maybe... identify Truth for us all.

Another open question:
So then, what are Expectations? And who controls them?

-------------------------------------------





Now, back to 'Progress.' And addressing 'Conflict'
Because Ari, you bring up some very good points!

The thing is we are both wrong. And right. At the same time. (back to how Paradox points to Truth if you believe in that sort of thing)

See. Progress involves cycling through Periods of Stability and Periods of Change. So it involves both.

I'll do my best to describe it in concise terms, but it's always a challenge to describe a Paradox.
Periods of Stability are when we try to understand New things/ideas (the Surprise) on a more in-depth level (because we haven't all figured out the Surprise)
Periods of Change occur when we build up to Surprise, or after we have already figured out the Surprise and find out it can be implemented on a wider scale, which takes time. This also points out why I'm so interested in 'truths' that extend to all (my search for Universal Truth): because once you figure those out, you get into a Period of Change, so that you can get to the next level of Stability.

How Conflict fits into all this is very interesting. Small Conflicts usually indicate you are in a Period of Stability. (ie. "You did something new... but meh... I easily proved you wrong"). Large Conflicts usually indicate a Period of Change. (ie. "I don't believe you no matter what you say... but wait... hold on... you might be on to something..."). Unfortunately Large Conflicts can make people very uncomfortable; so we often stay rooted in Periods of Stability. Nobody likes questioning their Beliefs, but I (ironically) Believe that we need to question our beliefs from time to time in order to discover something new, or to reinforce things that seem to be more Universal. But here's the kicker: BOTH outcomes lead to Surprise! Some sort of deeper understanding of an idea.

Then, once you gain this deeper understanding of the idea, new or old, it can be implemented, so we can move on to something else afterwards; To search for something new/old/different. And this Period of Searching for something new involves bantering ideas back and forth which is just another way of being in a Period of Stability.

[Theoretical] It's like a sine wave, and Surprise is at the top of a larger wave upon which smaller waves ride. ofc, not all waves reoccur at a constant rate, but they always repeat. They always progress. And now I'm getting into Universal Wave Theory, which is something I didn't want to do, but at the same time, I believe everything in this world follows wave patterns if you just look hard enough.

----------------------





Terminology Related to Surprise
Alright, we've been throwing around a lot of words to describe what a good AMV is composed of,
so let's re-visit some aspects of the whole 'AMV/Art Experience,' and think about how they relate to Surprise.
Because they all, in a sense surprise you:

    Expectations
    Twist; Originality; Unoriginality; Unique; Different
    Appeal; Review-ability; Repeat; Patterns; Deciphering; Understanding
    Enjoyability
    Progress; Conflict; Agreement; Disagreement; Compromise
    Contrast/Homogeneous
    Significant/Insignificant
    Flaws;Distractions
    Flow/Disturbance
    Story
    Stimulus; Response; Emotions
    Personal
    Good/Bad
    Positive/Negative Surprise
    Retro
    Subconscious; Control; Not in Control

(Also gote, I pretty much agree with everything in your post. :up:
Although, try to refrain from saying thing like that last comment (ofc I think we get it's all in good fun)
I think Ari pretty much gets it, it's just a shift of terminology that needs to take place.
In fact a lot of these terms came from both yours and Ari's posts :D )

Can we come up with more terms related to Surprise? (maybe some AMV terms too)
Does anyone need more clarification on what I mean by Surprise?
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Re: The Truth about AMVs

Postby JaddziaDax » Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:43 pm

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But what if the "surprise" annoys you? then it tips the scale to the bad side :P
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Re: The Truth about AMVs

Postby BasharOfTheAges » Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:46 pm

My first thoughts would be novelty or uniqueness, but those hold the same "it fades over time" connotation. Though I feel "novelty" is more of an innate quality that's true at t0 and beyond.
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Re: The Truth about AMVs

Postby Arigatomina » Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:14 pm

If we can use the word surprise to encompass everything from personal appeal to reviewability, then it works fine as a catch-all phrase. I just wish there were a term with one specific agreed-upon definition because otherwise it's like saying the video must have something "special" in order to be good. Special = good, therefore the vid must be good in order to be good? That doesn't tell us anything. We're just agreeing that "good" (surprise/appeal/special) means whatever you want it to mean, in which case we're right back to saying that it's a matter of opinion that differs from one person to the next. We already knew that.

Regarding patterns: I think people dislike broken patterns. When we see them it is a surprise, but it's an upleasant one. We fix it in order to make it conform to our expectations, to remove the element of unpleasant surprise. Our satisfaction afterward might surprise us, but we like the end result because it's what we want, what we expect to see and hear, with no unwanted surprises to mess up the image. In this case, surprise is the negative thing that we act to eliminate. You could replace the word surprise with "problem" and the sentences would read just the same.

Expectations: You know that trick where people mix up the letters of words but keep the first and last letters the same? People can read those sentences just fine because their minds automatically rearrange them to fit the spelling they've been taught to recognize. I would say, on a small scale, we're taught to see the entire world a certain way. When we're accosted by things that fall outside those accepted patterns we either automatically compensate to make it palatable, or we balk and get repulsed. This is the unpleasant surprise again. You can learn to like it, maybe even embrace and grow from it (progress), but most of the time you're going to try to change it so it fits into your preconceived notion of order.

[To put the pattern & expectation thing into an amv context: When you review a video you suggest things you would have done differently. The vid is a puzzle being put together by someone else. Even if you like the vid, there will be pieces in places you would never have put them. When you give your feedback you're detailing the "box" you fit the world into. That's why people are free to ignore your advice. There is no correct way to put that puzzle together. Some ways are more appealing than others, but even a disjointed collage of pieces may look perfectly normal to people who view things with the same pattern recognition program you do. This is why I consider amvs to be art. You're not reconstructing a puzzle that has a single clear end picture. You're making your own puzzle one piece at a time and whatever it looks like when you're done, it's good so long as it fits together nicely in your eyes. The key is finding some middle ground so the puzzle that fits nicely to you will also fit nicely for your target audience.]
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Re: The Truth about AMVs

Postby Emong » Thu Jul 05, 2012 7:19 pm

Phantasmagoriat wrote:
Emong wrote:For example, if you try to say that a good amv is defined by the element of surprise, the excess that is excluded from this is of course an amv which is good but not surprising (or even good precisely because it is not surprising). To pick an example from my own recent favorites: Enchanted. To me there's absolutely nothing surprising or original about this amv but I nonetheless think it's good, perhaps even partly because it fully and shamelessly assumes the rules of its genre.
Thank you for addressing the matter at hand :D Yet, my argument about Surprise still rings true. By having a video that doesn't Surprise you, and you still find it to be good, that *IS* the Surprise.

The problem with this argument is that it works all too well, encompassing any counter-argument. In fact you're already assuming what you're trying to prove. To demonstrate this point I could as well say that no, the universal feature which binds together all good amvs is not the element of surprise but on the contrary that good amvs always meet our expectations, therefore not surprising us at all. If you think you're getting the kicks out of originality it's only because it's what you're always expecting. Therefore the surprise element is just conformism in disguise. Any counter-argument can be formulated in a paradoxical way like this to support your own thesis. (Although I have to admit I'm often guilty of this.)

I still stand behind my argument that trying to pinpoint specific features and claim them universal is doomed to fail. The moment you do this you create a closure, and a closure is by definition an opening to something new, something that is doomed to be shaken up and violated. But not because we all have an irresistible desire to experience and create new things but because the closure is in itself inconsistent by definition. If we take the surprise element as an example again, we could say that the meaning of surprise, as you already elaborated, is ambiguous on its own. Or we could, like I did just a moment ago, even turn the surprise element on its head and point out that the pursuit of originality has become a boring standard. (Couldn't this explain at least partly why many of us sometimes just feel like editing a simple good ol' action/romance/sentimental/whatever-genre-you-happen-to-love amv, loyal to the rules of the genre? Isn't this also precisely what fanvideo editors are doing?)

I'm not so interested in finding universal features which might bind all good amvs (or any art works for that matter) together. The more interesting question is: why this need for universality? I'm not saying we should abandon this claim to universality altogether because we obviously can't seem to leave it alone. We're not satisfied with our subjective viewpoints. And perhaps it's precisely because of this that the universal dimension emerges: subjective reconciliation is impossible; we are always in conflict with our own subjective viewpoints.
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Re: The Truth about AMVs

Postby Phantasmagoriat » Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:16 pm

JaddziaDax wrote:But what if the "surprise" annoys you? then it tips the scale to the bad side :P
oh, for sure, surprises can be negative *overall* but for a split moment, the surprise catches you off guard. When that happens your brain immediately realizes "Oh, it's that stupid shit again..." and reverts to annoyance because it's like you are being told something you already know, which doesn't lead anywhere new. (which is what the opposite of what a Good Surprise should do).





BasharOfTheAges wrote:My first thoughts would be novelty or uniqueness, but those hold the same "it fades over time" connotation. Though I feel "novelty" is more of an innate quality that's true at t0 and beyond.
Yeah, that's a pretty good way to put it. Some things will always have a timeless quality. (I'm assuming that's what you mean by t0 :P) And if you focus on studying those types of works, you might discover qualities that are more Universal in nature. (Which comes back to these so-called 'Truths' I keep trying to uncover.)





Arigatomina wrote:If we can use the word surprise to encompass everything from personal appeal to reviewability, then it works fine as a catch-all phrase. I just wish there were a term with one specific agreed-upon definition because otherwise it's like saying the video must have something "special" in order to be good. Special = good, therefore the vid must be good in order to be good? That doesn't tell us anything. We're just agreeing that "good" (surprise/appeal/special) means whatever you want it to mean, in which case we're right back to saying that it's a matter of opinion that differs from one person to the next. We already knew that.
Well yeah, that's the limitation of Language I was talking about. Yet if we don't assign a value to an idea that encompasses all the things that make up a good AMV, it's kind of hard to have discussion. Like in programming you need to declare variables before you can do anything with them. Speaking of "specific agreed-upon definitions" Guess what? Definitions are made up of smaller subsets of definitions. That is the whole point of this thread: to come up with all those subsets in order to define "Good" And it starts by identifying Universal Truths which construct the overall definition. Perhaps [original] surprise is one part of it; perhaps enjoyment is another; and appeal is another. All of these things come together into what I am labelling as Surprise.





Arigatomina wrote:Regarding patterns: I think people dislike broken patterns. When we see them it is a surprise, but it's an upleasant one. We fix it in order to make it conform to our expectations, to remove the element of unpleasant surprise. Our satisfaction afterward might surprise us, but we like the end result because it's what we want, what we expect to see and hear, with no unwanted surprises to mess up the image. In this case, surprise is the negative thing that we act to eliminate. You could replace the word surprise with "problem" and the sentences would read just the same.
Excellent! this falls right into what I was talking about how we have tenancies to 'fix things' to Bring Order Back to Chaos. And it surprises us when we can do it; the ability to make some sense out of something that maybe shouldn't make sense is when we encounter Surprise. Why do you think some people like puzzles? But you are definitely on to something big with the word Problem. Which is more important? The Problem itself or the Surprise that arises. Maybe they are equally important. Problem may just be another word for Expectation that isn't fulfilled. Surprise may be another word for Expectation that is fulfilled (albeit, after those same Expectations weren't filled in the first place). Again, this falls back to my dual idea of "We Expect to be Surprised." You need both.




Arigatomina wrote:Expectations: You know that trick where people mix up the letters of words but keep the first and last letters the same? People can read those sentences just fine because their minds automatically rearrange them to fit the spelling they've been taught to recognize. I would say, on a small scale, we're taught to see the entire world a certain way. When we're accosted by things that fall outside those accepted patterns we either automatically compensate to make it palatable, or we balk and get repulsed. This is the unpleasant surprise again. You can learn to like it, maybe even embrace and grow from it (progress), but most of the time you're going to try to change it so it fits into your preconceived notion of order.
Well yeah, not everyone has the same notion of Order, which relates directly to Expectations. And I think how you react in accordance to your original Expectations says something special. I think there is a Paradox in here somewhere :o . This. Is. Good. This makes me very happy :D

    So,
    You can Choose to Accept something as Good, because it fits your sense of Order; and experience Happiness; or
    You can Choose to Reject something as Bad, because it doesn't fit your sense of Order, and experience Sadness (relatively-speaking); or
    You can Choose to Compensate, and experience... what?

    What does Compensate even mean? You could go about this two ways I think:
      1. Change your original sense of Order to fit your Surroundings (A change of mind) or;
      2. Change your Surroundings to fit your original sense of Order.

    What does this tell us? I think it's related somehow to:
      Audience vs Artist;
      Consume vs Create;
      To finally experience Surprise; Order; Happiness

    Alright, so if the Goal of Compensating is Happiness, do we always reach our goal?
    No. And that's when we become frustrated.

    We try to understand AMVs in a different light
    We try to make AMVs in different ways
    And sometimes it still doesn't do shit.

    But that doesn't mean we should stop trying to derive happiness...
    Through a change of mind; or a change of the art itself.
    It should work, because you can do these things an infinite number of ways.

    Eventually, something should Surprise you. Or maybe not.

    And that's the Paradox.

    I still don't know what it means.




Arigatomina wrote:You're making your own puzzle one piece at a time and whatever it looks like when you're done, it's good so long as it fits together nicely in your eyes.
I think a lot of this comes back to what I was saying regarding Audience vs Artist. More specifically the line that gets blurred when you consider, AS AN ARTIST, YOU. ARE. YOUR. OWN. AUDIENCE. So then, if I'm saying a good AMV is one that Surprises you, how the fuck do you surprise yourself!!?!! It's a Paradox, once again. and paradoxes always say something special. :D

And the Biggest Surprise of All is:
Spoiler :
If you can surprise yourself, you must not have seen it coming;
you must not have been in control of yourself.


I'm just going to call this Auto-Surprise.

Granted, part of it has to do with ones inability to control their bodily responses to stimulus. But the other part is probably a bit more subconscious.
I think this is where more Truth resides. Where something more Universal might actually exist, because again, we are all Human.




Arigatomina wrote:The key is finding some middle ground so the puzzle that fits nicely to you will also fit nicely for your target audience.
This. Now, I truly believe that if you can do this; you should be able to extend the the process to extend to everyone. The process is conceptualized. The process is there. It just needs to grow to accommodate all. Sure, you could say it would be an exercise in futility; but if there's anything worth doing, that would be it. We may not be able to come up with the idea that achieves this end, but growing the process that could one day give raise to such an idea is something we can all contribute to; simply by sharing what we know. Just talking. Communication. And as a bonus. We just might learn something about ourselves along the way.

----------------------------------


Some more good words:
    Problem
    Order/Chaos
    Style
    Special
    Reaction
    Choice
    Accept
    Reject
    Compensate
    Accommodate
    Goal
    Auto-Surprise
    Communication
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Re: The Truth about AMVs

Postby Arigatomina » Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:36 pm

Phantasmagoriat wrote:Yet if we don't assign a value to an idea that encompasses all the things that make up a good AMV, it's kind of hard to have discussion.

That's what frustrates me. We already have a word that encompasses all of those things. Good. Why not just stick with the word good? We all agree on that. Defining good by saying "good things are good" goes nowhere. It's just time consuming talk.

Replace suprise with XXX if you don't want to use the word good. But everything people attribute to XXX will be something good, something positive that they think makes the video good. So in the end all they're saying is that it's good if it's good. We can list all the things we think a video needs to be good: surprise, lack of surprise, humor, seriousness, etc. We can agree on a lot of those things and tell people to include the most popular aspects if they want their video to be good. But to lump all of those things that make it good under one word is the same as saying good is good.

I guess my point is that we already have our universal term: Good.

What do we achieve by using surprise/appeal/XXX instead of good when the definition of those terms is expanded to include anything good?

This is what you're saying:
A video must have an element of surprise to be good.
Anything good is a surprise.
Therefore a video must have an element of good to be good.

My brain hurts. :cry:
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Re: The Truth about AMVs

Postby Phantasmagoriat » Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:50 pm

Not quite. The words are not synonyms outright. They have very different meanings.
Surprise is the thing that leads to something being Good.
Good is the end result. Surprise is how you got there.

Then if you figure out the things that lead to Surprise, you can continue backwards to see how it all worked.
The eventual goal would be to create a hierarchy, or rather to show all the relations to gain a better understanding of everything.
The map would be massive, but that's the case with all things complex.

@Emong: I might have to get back to you another day. Tomorrow maybe.

My brain is starting to hurt too :lol:

/Mode Relax ON
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Re: The Truth about AMVs

Postby gotegenks » Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:16 pm

just because surprise isn't quite an adequate term for what we're going for doesn't mean we can replace it with anything under the sun and be just dandy with it. Surprise really is the only word our limited vocabularies can summon up to describe this idea.

it's not that anything with an element of surprise is good, it's that anything good (and/or enjoyable) has an element of surprise to it.

the original video = surprising because you've never seen it
the enjoyable video with flaws = surprising because its enjoyable despite its flaws
a video with really generic sources that turns out to be original while still staying true to its genre = surprising because you (most likely) usually dislike videos with those sources
a really enlightening idea that you welcome with open arms because it explains a lot in your life or a lot you've been pondering = surprising because you'd never thought of that.
good video with retro sources or style = surprising because you haven't seen it in a while

but something with surprise doesn't necessarily make something good, it can also make something bad or unenjoyable

the OVERLY original video that just throws out all technique and good source picking just to be the craziest weirdest video ever = annoying (to some, maybe most)
the unenjoyable video that is technically perfect (or near-perfect anyway) = surprising because even though its great you dislike it
A foreign idea that offends = surprising because you're not used to hearing it and its probably something extremish
Heartwarming.

there are a lot of videos these days on youtube that i despise because the techniques used i think are really annoying and i'm not exactly exposed to it a lot, and while they're usually super ridiculously polished they usually just offend my eyes with their poppy girly sources and poppy girly colors and text and slides and HFLASDKFJAGS

and these are all videos on their first viewing, of course subsequent viewings can lose some of that surprise although when something is truly original and new it takes a while for it to wear off, so surprise is a word that explains why things are way better the first time than the 43rd time.

i would assert that surprise isn't what makes something good, but what elicits an emotional reaction out of the viewer. Surprise can have a negative impact on you or a positive impact. If it has a positive impact on you, it could have a negative impact on someone else, but surprise is at the root of that impact. The examples i gave are just in general for here as well, but some people might dislike the likes and like the dislikes, but they're still surprising in some way. Also, some things might be surprising to some but not at all surprising to someone else, imagine a parallel universe a-m-v.org that has our same attitudes and everything but somehow has never seen a linkin park video or a dragonball z video, or a video with flashes or anything. Show that org one of these videos and they may flip out over the surprise.

when i posted my Bleach! video in the announcements, it wasn't really technically anything special, bleach nerds loved it, a lot of people that like my edits but dislike bleach and bleach edits loved it, but it got the most response out of any video i've ever uploaded, and i would venture to say it was because i posted a goddamn random action bleach video on THE ORG. It might've gotten as much bad response as good response as well, but the surprise from seeing it there elicited an emotional reaction out of all the commenters, whether it be good or bad.

surprise explains those annoying-ass comments "i usually hate this source, but you did awesome with it!" that everyone has left at least once. for me it was on one of may's videos, i forget which one (owl city song i believe) but i actually do like that video and most of the appeal comes from the rarity of me liking a video with either of those sources.

when an editor you know personally releases a video, and you know their other work, even if it's still decent, if it's a little worse than usual, it elicits a negative reaction because it has a negative impact on you who know they can do better. When a noob friend of yours finally releases a really good video, you love that shit like it's the video of the decade, because your surprised that they've done a good video! not that you didn't believe in them, it's just it's finally here and WOW! Also why i don't like videos near as much as i would if i never beta tested them so much, because the surprise is worn out, and most of the would be surprises were introduced to me one at a time.

so basically, surprise is a fine word, let's keep using that.
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Re: The Truth about AMVs

Postby Fall_Child42 » Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:41 pm

POOP
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Re: The Truth about AMVs

Postby ReggieSmalls » Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:41 pm

Fall_Child42 wrote:
POOP


x2
Am I the meanest? Sho'nuff !
Am I the prettiest? Sho'nuff !
Am I the baddest mofo low down around this town? Sho'nuff!
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Re: The Truth about AMVs

Postby Castor Troy » Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:41 pm

42
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"You're ignoring everything, except what you want to hear.." - jbone
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Re: The Truth about AMVs

Postby macchinainterna » Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:42 pm

ReggieSmalls wrote:
Fall_Child42 wrote:
POOP


x3
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