The Truth about AMVs

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Re: The Truth about AMVs

Postby DriftRoot » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:26 pm

BasharOfTheAges wrote:I'm going to say no to this emphatically. There's nothing wrong with having academic discussion. I concede, however, that only a small subset of us are actually having academic discussions, while another portion chimes in with gut reactions, and yet another with conversations completely orthogonal to the topic at hand.


Just to clarify my position on this: There is nothing wrong with it, I love academic discussions! But when a topic is something like "truth about AMVs," there is no way the discussion is not going to devolve in lots of different ways, some of them ok, some of them not. I just feel that if there were more casual, fun, relevant, college-courses-in-psychology, sociology, history and philosophy-not-required discussions in the forums, this would be a more active, engaging, welcoming place where people aren't scared, uncertain or unable to participate. (Believe me, I thought long and hard before posting in this thread.) It's the absence of those other threads I regret, not the presence of academic discussions like this one.

/end of DriftRoot's contribution to off-topic discussion. I apologize to Phantasmagoriat and others if I am interfering with this thread. I won't do it again.
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Re: The Truth about AMVs

Postby gotegenks » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:29 pm

lloyd9988 wrote:Read Ari's post about religious posting. . . Reads the title: "The Truth About AMVs". . . Laughs his ass off :rofl:

ALL HAIL THE ALL MIGHTY MUSIC VIDEO!!!

amen, i'm a deist who believes in the mighty DAMV!

damv
day em vee
deity
day et ee

get it?
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Re: The Truth about AMVs

Postby Emong » Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:10 pm

DriftRoot wrote:Just to clarify my position on this: There is nothing wrong with it, I love academic discussions! But when a topic is something like "truth about AMVs," there is no way the discussion is not going to devolve in lots of different ways, some of them ok, some of them not. I just feel that if there were more casual, fun, relevant, college-courses-in-psychology, sociology, history and philosophy-not-required discussions in the forums, this would be a more active, engaging, welcoming place where people aren't scared, uncertain or unable to participate. (Believe me, I thought long and hard before posting in this thread.) It's the absence of those other threads I regret, not the presence of academic discussions like this one.

/end of DriftRoot's contribution to off-topic discussion. I apologize to Phantasmagoriat and others if I am interfering with this thread. I won't do it again.

It's actually not so much off-topic since it looks like every time somebody makes a thread about "what makes a good amv" or something related there are always a bunch of either worried people who think these threads are tearing the community apart or people who make fun of (what they perceive as pseudo-)intellectual discussion. But why so serious? It's just debate and people getting high on theory. I'm almost leaning on the idea of a sub-forum or a stickied thread where people could discuss amv-theory (or whatever this should be called) with the risk of polemics. I even know a perfect example of this from a band forum I go to. They have a permanent thread where people can discuss politics and things even get quite aggressive there sometimes. But the beauty is that nobody cares. The people who post there know that debates can get heated and the thread is well isolated from the rest of the forum. It works perfectly.
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Re: The Truth about AMVs

Postby Pwolf » Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:11 pm

DriftRoot wrote:WE are the .Org, every single one of us, but the only people in control of the .Org as a community are the people who act and speak in full view of the community.


So very true.
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Re: The Truth about AMVs

Postby JaddziaDax » Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:53 pm

good mood sync
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Re: The Truth about AMVs

Postby Phantasmagoriat » Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:38 pm

Arigatomina wrote:
Phantasmagoriat wrote:And STOP saying "BAWWWWW EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT!!!!!!" boo hoo.

You don't have to bold things as if you're screaming in my face. I hear you just fine. In fact, it would be easier to read your posts if you'd just type normally and use paragraphs.
I don't succumb to emotionally devoid forms of expression. Much akin to making a good AMV, I emphasize what's important.



Arigatomina wrote:It's clear that we disagree about what progress is. In my opinion, the org has gone stagnant because too many people agreed on what good amvs were. The forum community agreed so strongly that they drove away everyone who disagreed. You don't have to preach unity and similarity in order to unite the org. The majority of people still here have agreed on what good and bad is for years. That's why they're still here. That's why the forum hasn't grown the way the rest of the net has. The org has a narrow view of amvs that limits what "good" editors make and causes not-so-good editors to make nothing at all, or to share it on the tube rather than bringing it here where it's not welcome. If that's the org you dream of, where everyone is united in marching to a single idea of what is good, then you don't have to try so hard. We're already there. Yes, there are still some stubborn people insisting that we're all different (and some of us celebrate that fact rather than sobbing about it), but we're few and far between. Don't waste your time trying to convert us into happy head-nodding drones. It's not going to happen. If we could be incorporated into the org collective it would have happened a long time ago.
... I see that situation very differently. We have not come together in the slightest bit. Maybe as a niche group, sure. But driving away other people to YouTube is a clear sign of division, is it not?

-------------------------------------




Pwolf wrote:And on the subject of "progress" and AMVs... what would be considered "progress" to begin with?
Good question :)

Progress in the current situation would simply go beyond:

    "Everyone is Different. End of story."

Progress would involve active discussion pointing out those differences
so we can finally understand how those different perspectives work,
instead of shrugging it off and saying:

    "Well... you can't make everyone happy..."

Progress would involve sharing Knowledge, creating Guides, Tutorials,
How-To's, Guidelines, Standards, Safe-Practices, Rules of Thumb etc...

so that we get a better understanding of why some people like certain AMVs
and some people don't.
That way we can stop bitching and complaining...
and AMV quality/value would actually improve overall. Instead of saying:

    "I don't like your standards, they are too restricting and put me into a cage.
    Let's stop talking about this."

Progress is ANY time something changes. Even if that means two steps backwards, three steps ahead.
True Progress is when we ALL agree upon something, and something changes.
No Progress is when we ALL agree upon something, and nothing changes.
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Re: The Truth about AMVs

Postby Phantasmagoriat » Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:40 pm

emong wrote:
qyll wrote:Read up on this page if you're interested: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesthetics.
To extend the list a little bit:

http://www.iep.utm.edu/aestheti/
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/aesthetic-judgment/
Oh WISE QYLL and EMONG, thank you for sharing those!



qyll wrote:It seems like the only thing we can agree upon is that we will never be able to agree upon anything.
Yeah... it's looking to be that way. But that's something I'm specifically trying to avoid. How about this:
"If we are ALL indeed DIFFERENT. Why couldn't we make an AMV or any piece of Art that has a little something for everyone?"Maybe get a good audio mix, perhaps even in MEP form, and structure it so everyone get's their own view expressed; a small glimpse at themselves and how they fit into the whole. This is why I love MEPs like and . Hell, even SOAD2: Rising from the Ashes, a 5 year old relic, that has finally been released, speaks to more editing viewpoints than most AMVs today.



qyll wrote:Pwolf raises some interesting questions, though. Why is the org shrinking when AMV contests are becoming ever more popular (look at the recent Anime Expo)? Is it really because of the internal strife?
I think it's mostly because of where the userbase hangs out: YouTube. These days, people grow up on sites like that. And the majority of AMVers are quite young.
/2cents



qyll wrote:And what are some examples of progress in AMVs (and how did these trends spawn)? Those are also interesting questions. I'd love to hear some answers to this one.
I'll refer you to my response towards Pwolf ;)
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Re: The Truth about AMVs

Postby Phantasmagoriat » Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:40 pm

DriftRoot wrote:So now we get attempts at meta-discussion and stabs at people's personal views and beliefs, but for anyone outside the .Org looking in, I can't believe that's a very attractive, interesting or valuable face we're putting forward. Every thread that gets posted like this and every person who stays silent and lets a smaller and smaller group of people do the talking is letting those threads and those people define the face of the .Org. Want to be more casual about AMVs and offer a more open and welcoming atmosphere for newcomers? Want to celebrate different kinds of "good" AMVs? Then do so, because it's not going to happen without you. WE are the .Org, every single one of us, but the only people in control of the .Org as a community are the people who act and speak in full view of the community.
I pretty much agree with everything you said, but I like how you bring this up. The way I see it, progress can only occur through struggle/conflict. So yeah, in the beginning, it might not look to friendly, but in the end we might actually get somewhere by talking about this stuff. Much like my thread How has the hobby made a difference in your life?, I never really talked to my Dad for the majority of my life. But once we hashed things out, now he's like my best friend. So YES. WE. ARE. THE. .ORG. And we CAN speak up. Each and every one of us. Even those who have never posted anything in their lives.



JudgeHolden wrote:It's all personal taste, pure and simple. Just like movies ... I mean I have a friend who thinks Constantine is the greatest movie ever made.
Do you know *why* they like the movie so much? so you can see things from their perspective? Perhaps they don't watch that many movies. Share your opinion. Show them the light. 8-)



BasharOfTheAges wrote:Do enough research on human psychology, social psychology, neuro-science, and the underlying biology behind it all (including stuff like genetics), and you begin to appreciate the collective understanding of how we appreciate things on a subconscious level has more roots in what we are than who we are. As a species, we are preconditioned, independent of nurture, to recognize and derive some degree of pleasure from certain underlying qualities of objects or other people. These are "truths" of the human race. We are, quite literally, hard-wired (neurologically speaking) to see beauty in the golden ratio.
It's a little depressing to thing about, but quite true. Yet, it also gives me an appreciation for the complexities of everything.



BasharOfTheAges wrote:
DriftRoot wrote:...
*snip*
..
I'm going to say no to this emphatically. There's nothing wrong with having academic discussion. I concede, however, that only a small subset of us are actually having academic discussions, while another portion chimes in with gut reactions, and yet another with conversations completely orthogonal to the topic at hand.
Gut reactions lead to more Truth than you would think based on cold hard logic. Because even if you are wrong, by following your gut reaction you eventually get on the right path, which is better than not travelling on any path at all. AND as a bonus, if you make a mistake, you get to experience the other path as well; to truly understand what's it's like to be on the other side; to understand other perspectives *fully.* Not just a simulation of what you think in your head. So, it's okay to follow your gut reaction and make mistakes sometimes. Mistakes can be fixed. Quite easily actually. If you are just willing to admit when you make them. Then adjust accordingly. Because it's the final outcome that matters, eh?




gotegenks wrote:i feel like a lot of people are missing the point here. He's not trying to say "can every single human being agree that a good concept makes a good amv?" He's really saying "what about what we like in a video makes us like it? What about what we like in a video is similar to what people with opposing viewpoints like?"

youtubers may like twitches and oversync, the org may like good concepts and such, but what about those two preferences is similar? and the answer he's going for isn't "well they both include good visuals" or anything physical like that, the answer is more subconscious than that, and i believe he hit the nail on the head with "surprise."

and i can see people taking that like "everyone likes an amv with a twist right?" but that's not at all what he was saying, and he described it in full detail in one of his responses.

i really have yet to see anything that really disputes that claim in here.
*sheds tear*

YOU UNDERSTAND ME!!!

(I'm assuming that by page 3 everyone has read my first post, so spoilers aside now:)
"WE EXPECT TO BE SURPRISED!"
Is that NOT a UNIVERSAL TRUTH.
Something to tell us what TRULY makes a good AMV?
NOBODY HAS CHALLENGED THIS YET.
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Re: The Truth about AMVs

Postby Pwolf » Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:51 pm

Phantasmagoriat wrote:NOBODY HAS CHALLENGED THIS YET.


Actually, I'd like to say I did. Using the example of the Batman video in the Off Topic forum. The video wasn't "good" IMO but through "surprise", as mentioned, I found the video somewhat enjoyable. If anything, the real question to the answer is "what makes a truly enjoyable video?". "Surprise" is an emotional response, not a measurement of skill or talent, therefor shouldn't it be used to measure an emotion?
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Re: The Truth about AMVs

Postby Phantasmagoriat » Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:07 pm

Emong wrote:The real reason is probably more boring, namely that we're losing revenue to more popular (and user-friendlier) video sharing sites like YouTube.
x2




Emong wrote:For example, if you try to say that a good amv is defined by the element of surprise, the excess that is excluded from this is of course an amv which is good but not surprising (or even good precisely because it is not surprising). To pick an example from my own recent favorites: Enchanted. To me there's absolutely nothing surprising or original about this amv but I nonetheless think it's good, perhaps even partly because it fully and shamelessly assumes the rules of its genre.
Thank you for addressing the matter at hand :D Yet, my argument about Surprise still rings true. By having a video that doesn't Surprise you, and you still find it to be good, that *IS* the Surprise.






DriftRoot wrote:/end of DriftRoot's contribution to off-topic discussion. I apologize to Phantasmagoriat and others if I am interfering with this thread. I won't do it again.
Don't ever put yourself down for opening your mouth. If anything, NOT opening your mouth is a crime. :wink:





Pwolf wrote:
Phantasmagoriat wrote:NOBODY HAS CHALLENGED THIS YET.


Actually, I'd like to say I did. Using the example of the Batman video in the Off Topic forum. The video wasn't "good" IMO but through "surprise", as mentioned, I found the video somewhat enjoyable.
Yet, the fact that you found it to be good despite thinking it was a bad video Surprises you does it not?






Pwolf wrote:If anything, the real question to the answer is "what makes a truly enjoyable video?"
I actually agree with this quite a bit. :up: The only thing I'm trying to say, is:

"If you identify when something Surprises you (in any way shape or form), you are on the right path to discovering what made it good in the first place."

I know it's kind-of like stating the obvious, but that's really where I think everyone should begin.






Pwolf wrote:"Surprise" is an emotional response, not a measurement of skill or talent, therefor shouldn't it be used to measure an emotion?
I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. My belief is that Emotions *should* be used as a Subjective measure of when a video is good. Objective measures are just stale, and emotionally devoid; which I think are terrible measures of what makes a video good.



Wow, it took half my afternoon, but I think I'm finally all caught up in this thread. :amv: :bear:
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Re: The Truth about AMVs

Postby Pwolf » Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:49 pm

Phantasmagoriat wrote:Yet, the fact that you found it to be good despite thinking it was a bad video Surprises you does it not?


But I didn't find the video to be good, just enjoyable. Perhaps, yes that surprised me but I wouldn't consider the video good still.

Phantasmagoriat wrote:I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. My belief is that Emotions *should* be used as a Subjective measure of when a video is good. Objective measures are just stale, and emotionally devoid; which I think are terrible measures of what makes a video good.


I'm thinking this might be the root of the issue. "Enjoyable" and "good" are two very different things in my mind. "Enjoyment" is an emotion that's expressed through stimulus (in this case watching an AMV). "Good" is a measurement of it's characteristics... all of it's characteristics, whither that's the editing and flow of the video, the video/audio quality, or how much you enjoyed the video. IMO, when saying something is "good" it has to be measured against a standard (this can be anything). When saying something is enjoyable, the only standard is whither or not it sparked an enjoyable emotional response. While I believe enjoyment and emotion should most definitely also be considered when measuring how good a video is, using it at the only true way to determine how good a video might be is... wrong?

Someone mentioned movies earlier. There are movies out there that are widely considered terrible films, but are loved and enjoyed because of their flaws. These films aren't "good" compared to the standards that have been put in place in our society but they are still enjoyed and loved despite that. And we all acknowledge them as being bad films.
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Re: The Truth about AMVs

Postby Phantasmagoriat » Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:13 pm

Pwolf wrote:I'm thinking this might be the root of the issue. "Enjoyable" and "good" are two very different things in my mind. "Enjoyment" is an emotion that's expressed through stimulus (in this case watching an AMV). "Good" is a measurement of it's characteristics... all of it's characteristics, whither that's the editing and flow of the video, the video/audio quality, or how much you enjoyed the video. IMO, when saying something is "good" it has to be measured against a standard (this can be anything). When saying something is enjoyable, the only standard is whither or not it sparked an enjoyable emotional response. While I believe enjoyment and emotion should most definitely also be considered when measuring how good a video is, using it at the only true way to determine how good a video might be is... wrong?
Aye, therin lies the problem.

My mind sees AMVs on a balance scale of Good and Bad.
If a video is Technically Competent, the AMVs position slides more towards the Good side.
If the video is Enjoyable, it practically tips the whole scale in the positive direction.


Sure they are both separate things, but they both contribute to the overall 'Goodness' of the AMV.

Actually, I kind of see the whole Universe this way.
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Re: The Truth about AMVs

Postby Pwolf » Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:56 pm

Phantasmagoriat wrote:Sure they are both separate things, but they both contribute to the overall 'Goodness' of the AMV.


And perhaps that's something we can all agree on :P

inb4 I DISAGREE! 8-)
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Re: The Truth about AMVs

Postby Phantasmagoriat » Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:13 pm

Hey, hey... now we're getting somewhere... :D


Alright. Now would you not consider that to be a Universal Truth of sorts?
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Re: The Truth about AMVs

Postby Chained(E)Studio » Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:08 pm

I can't keep up with this, you guys type so much @_@
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