The Lip Flapper : Volume 11.2 - Contests

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The Lip Flapper : Volume 11.2 - Contests

Postby CodeZTM » Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:25 pm

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Disclaimer: These interviews are not associated with a-m-v.org, and do not reflect the opinions of its administration.

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Description

Welcome to the Lip Flapper! Each week, we delve deep into the community and get a good look into both individual members as well as group discussions on various issues that surround our hobby.

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This Week in "The Lip Flapper"

This week is all about AMV contests and conventions! We talk with contest and convention coordinators, people who have been to conventions, those that judge AMV contests, and naturally just everything about them!

We have a 4 part series, finished up with an AMV Review on Friday with an action video that doesn't suck!

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The Panel

As an AMV Contest participant, what's something that you believe could improve AMV Contests, both on and off the internet?

On a more controversial note, what are your feelings on "contest trolling", or the act of one video being entered into all American contests (and winning them)?


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AngelDragoon wrote:As an AMV Contest participant, what's something that you believe could improve AMV Contests, both on and off the internet?

Though for the most part many contests do a good job at explaining contest rules, I think some forget that many who want to compete are still new at it. I know when I was just starting out I had no idea there were different types of .avi files, let alone what most contests preferred. (No, seriously. I barely even knew how to work a computer other than the internet and word program before 2007). Contests don't need to explain how to make videos into specific files, but they should spell out everything they want from a video to avoid any issues ahead of time. Granted, many people still might go, 'Lul, whut? I'll just send it in .wmv! ', but others will actually read it and want to learn. Another aspect I'd like to see improved is the video confirmation. We all know how the postal service can be; a quick email saying my video got there in one piece would be nice, especially before the deadline.

On a more controversial note, what are your feelings on "contest trolling", or the act of one video being entered into all American contests (and winning them)?

If the video is good enough to win that many awards, then it deserves it. Every video contest is not run by the same people, nor is the audience exactly the same each time. I think the biggest controversy that stems from this issue comes from people not being able to win 'fairly', or feel that they don't have a chance at winning because the video that was 'trolling' has quite a few awards. The thing is, everyone's video does have a chance at winning at the start of every contest; the judges/audience just happened to like the other one more at that particular event. Granted, seeing the same video at several different contests can get boring and/or annoying for a viewer, but at that point it's up to the editor to say, 'Maybe I should submit something


kireblue wrote:Since every AMV contest is different, its hard to say how to generally improve them, but I would like it if more contest used resources like twitter and facebook. I'm not able to attend some of the contests that I submit to, so it would be awesome if I could read the results on twitter right away instead f sometimes waiting almost a week for an official update to the website.

In terms of the trolling question, I understand that people send their AMVs to many different contests in order to get it noticed, but once your video has won a cretin number of contests, you should retire it. Having a video that has won ten different awards from ten different conventions that you've never even been to is a bit much. Personally, I retire a video immediately after it has won 1st place at any convention. Of course, this is my own personal guideline, and I don't expect anyone else to be as strict (nor would I want them to be since I actually run various AMV events and contests). I just think that a line needs to be drawn somewhere between the two extremes.


GloryQuestor wrote:Speaking from both sides of the fence, the growing separation of videos from the traditional category setup is the biggest issue with viewing a contest. There are many videos these days that really don't fit any one type of category, which leads the video to feel miscategorized in the category it was selected for. There are many of us coordinators working towards changing the basic contest format so that audiences can get a better focus on the arrangement of videos and make AMV contest viewing a more enjoyable experience.

- On a more controversial note, what are your feelings on "contest trolling", or the act of one video being entered into all American contests (and winning them)?

When it comes to recycling videos in various contests, I feel there is no controversy or issue there. Conventions are all over the United States, so trolling a video in that context actually gets it to more big screens throughout the country and to more people who would like to view that video in a theater environment rather than at home. In the end, contests are really all about giving what the audiences want. If the audience for a convention doesn't want to see an AMV contest, then there will be no contest held at the convention. In that respect, since a winning video would end up being an entertaining experience for its audience, "trolling" that video to conventions is something that convention organizers would actually want to see.


diegao94 wrote:I think that it depends on the contests. For those which don't have it, a local system of upload in the contest's site would be a nice thing, because it's more practical and faster than the upload in other file sharing sites like Mediafire. In general, I think that, for an AMV contest, the most important thing is the clarity and the completeness of the rules and the presence of some respectable prizes.


I think that if a video manages to win all the contests in which is being entered, it's probably a great one. But I've honestly never heard about a video which has succeeded in a similar goal, I'm not really informed about the American Contests and the "contest trolling" in general.. :uhoh:


ngsilver wrote:Probably the single thing that can improve a contest is if the coordinator actually understands the reasons behind each and every rule they have rather then copying their rules from another contest and running with it. Rules have a reason for existing, but if you don't know why your enforcing a rule then why are you even using it?

Personally, if it's within the rules for a contest then by all means troll if you want to do that. For me, sending videos to a contest is more about getting my videos out to be seen then to really win awards. True, I enjoy competition but the end result for me is that my video was seen by someone not if it wins or not. And really, if a contest allows trolling what is wrong with actually doing it then? There was no rule in place to stop that, so is it really wrong then? Perhaps the editor is doing it just to win the awards, then there is probably something wrong with that editor POV towards editing and perhaps they should re-evaluate their reasons for being in this hobby, but if the contest allowed it then there is really nothing there to stop them.


Nya-Chan Production wrote:I can't think of anything that can be said about "all" the contest in general. Give it enough time and it'll be okay? ><
And about this [Contest Trolling] - I don't really care. If you want it that way, so be it. Some cons protect themselves, but in my opinion if it's not forbidden, it should be okay - it might show the video to few more people who hadn't seen it 30 times already after all :3


irriadin wrote:There is certainly room for improvement in many contests being run. Ensuring your pre-screeners are educated or informed about AMV's is important in picking finalists and weeding out lesser videos. Some contests have had trouble with videos being made "finalists" that were largely unedited but using relatively obscure source material.

Apart from that, more transparency regarding rules and contest deadlines would never hurt.

Ah, the ever controversial "contest trolling" question. First I'll talk about my own personal policy. I submit only to conventions that I would ever conceivably go to, (with exceptions made for contests offering Asuka trophies... >_>) so I largely stick to my geographical area. I totally get why an editor would submit to every convention under the sun; more exposure, more awards, more fans, who wouldn't want that? And if you're good enough to beat everyone else, then why shouldn't you? Still, I find nothing wrong with certain conventions maintaining a "no-trolling" policy. It maintains some of the excitement over what you're going to see. Particularly for huge conventions like Otakon (which maintains a no-trolling policy) you're likely to see a number of video premieres that haven't been shown publicly anywhere.

Is there a happy medium? I think so. Perhaps another category can be added to contests, a sort of "hall of fame". It would be exempt from contest voting, but would still be shown and grant the editor exposure.


BasharOfTheAges wrote:Read and understand your own rules. Get someone else to read them. Realize when they're flawed and FIX them so they're not. Apply them equally and fairly. If you can do that, then contestants can respect your contest.

On a more controversial note, what are your feelings on "contest trolling", or the act of one video being entered into all American contests (and winning them)?

As someone who runs a contest concerned more with having good videos to entertain the audience than affirmative action for local editors, I can tolerate a degree of it. Hell, I make one video a year and submit it to most of the largest spring/summer cons myself, but after a few months I have the personal restraint to know when to say when. I think we need the topic to come up every so often, however, so newer editors get to learn that unique form of personal restraint that only public shaming and a healthy dose of guilt can bring.


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Monthly Calendar

February 6: xDreww Interview
February 13: Fanservice Panel
February 20: Magnus Interview
February 27: Convention/Contest Panel


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Past Interviews/Discussions

Shin-AMV
Pwolf
Scintilla
Lip Flap
AimoAio
Youtube Panel + Bonus BakaViking Interview
Kosmit Interview
Youtube Panel Pt 2
xDreww
Fanservice Panel
Magnus
Convention Panel : Judges

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Next Time on "The Lip Flapper"

Join me tomorrow evening when I sit down and talk some more about conventions!
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Re: The Lip Flapper : Volume 11.2 - Contests

Postby Rendakor » Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:52 pm

I'd never heard of "contest trolling" until now; learn something new every day.
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Re: The Lip Flapper : Volume 11.2 - Contests

Postby TritioAFB » Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:22 pm

The problem is that is not really funny to enter into a contest and the same video keeps winning and winning. I don't deny the awesomeness of a video, but think about the newer editors. You'll never compare a newbie with Shin or Ileia for example. I noticed that tendecy in the last Cons I entered: Newbies that before the Con they were very pumped, but after the Con they are like: meh, I should never show my face again.

Of course I don't really mean like: Ok a video won a contest, it shouldn't win the next one. If a video is winning lots of contests, that says a lot about the video. It's a must-watch amv, otherwise it wouldn't win so many contests.

In one hand, it will be interesting for the newbies that they could meet other styles of amv, but in the other hand, they will need a kind of encouragement just to keep the interest. Otherwise, it will be harder for them to keep in the hobby without any improvement
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Re: The Lip Flapper : Volume 11.2 - Contests

Postby lloyd9988 » Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:47 pm

TritioAFB wrote:The problem is that is not really funny to enter into a contest and the same video keeps winning and winning. I don't deny the awesomeness of a video, but think about the newer editors. You'll never compare a newbie with Shin or Ileia for example. I noticed that tendecy in the last Cons I entered: Newbies that before the Con they were very pumped, but after the Con they are like: meh, I should never show my face again.

Of course I don't really mean like: Ok a video won a contest, it shouldn't win the next one. If a video is winning lots of contests, that says a lot about the video. It's a must-watch amv, otherwise it wouldn't win so many contests.

In one hand, it will be interesting for the newbies that they could meet other styles of amv, but in the other hand, they will need a kind of encouragement just to keep the interest. Otherwise, it will be harder for them to keep in the hobby without any improvement


I think you've hit the point of Talent vs. Dedication. Most of us newbie editors don't have the talent that some of the other editors have, so its like we're left with only one of three options: Drop out, go to youtube, or, God forbid, work harder. <---- That was sarcasm, in case you didn't catch that. But, seriously, when you want to make something above the standards of what is being shown but you don't have the talent to make it happen, the only thing you can truly rely on are both dedication and professional opinions. Take one of those out of the equation, and an editor will never grow any better. Not to mention, even those with the talent to make a good AMV need a professional opinion every now and again, unless they're just completely Raw and unfiltered talent that just has some extremely obsessed passion for this hobby. :P
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Re: The Lip Flapper : Volume 11.2 - Contests

Postby gotegenks » Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:56 pm

i'll stop submitting to everything when me winning everything becomes a problem.
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Re: The Lip Flapper : Volume 11.2 - Contests

Postby Warlike Swans » Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:07 am

kireblue wrote:In terms of the trolling question, I understand that people send their AMVs to many different contests in order to get it noticed, but once your video has won a cretin number of contests, you should retire it.



Pretty certain that wasn't the word you intended, but I found it amusing. :D

Relating to both trolling and ways to improve contests, I wish ALL contest announcements actually listed the location of the convention. I don't really like seeing the same videos at two cons that are geographically close (Like AAC in NH, and Anime Boston), so I try not to submit not to double submit to a region... it would be nice if that were easier.
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Re: The Lip Flapper : Volume 11.2 - Contests

Postby Sephiroth » Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:06 pm

The one i can understand is video freshness about 2 years old and not in the contest before. but if i make a well received vid i sure as hell want that to have as many people see it as possible.
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Re: The Lip Flapper : Volume 11.2 - Contests

Postby BasharOfTheAges » Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:17 pm

Sephiroth wrote:The one i can understand is video freshness about 2 years old and not in the contest before. but if i make a well received vid i sure as hell want that to have as many people see it as possible.

Lets take that to the extreme. If everyone sends everything everywhere, all the contests will be very similar and the attendee that goes to 2 or 3 cons a year will just pass on going to contest screenings all together because they get sick of seeing the same shit every time they go; meanwhile, all the editors that keep getting rejected everywhere because you had to send stuff in everywhere, taking up all the slots, will quit submitting. Eventually, the contest has low turn out and low submissions and gets low billing as an event because fewer people are interested.

There is a fine line to walk, and that's where one has to have the courtesy to restrain themselves, lest that outcome be on their head. Quite simply, it's a commons dilemma of sorts.
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Re: The Lip Flapper : Volume 11.2 - Contests

Postby Radical_Yue » Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:11 pm

BasharOfTheAges wrote:
Sephiroth wrote:The one i can understand is video freshness about 2 years old and not in the contest before. but if i make a well received vid i sure as hell want that to have as many people see it as possible.

Lets take that to the extreme. If everyone sends everything everywhere, all the contests will be very similar and the attendee that goes to 2 or 3 cons a year will just pass on going to contest screenings all together because they get sick of seeing the same shit every time they go; meanwhile, all the editors that keep getting rejected everywhere because you had to send stuff in everywhere, taking up all the slots, will quit submitting. Eventually, the contest has low turn out and low submissions and gets low billing as an event because fewer people are interested.

There is a fine line to walk, and that's where one has to have the courtesy to restrain themselves, lest that outcome be on their head. Quite simply, it's a commons dilemma of sorts.



x2 on this. Hell, I saw one video over 8 times just be going to 2 cons in a single year :|
No joke.

This wasn't the one but it accompanied the video I'm talking about:


Look how many contests it was in. That isn't a sign of greatness, that's just blatant disregard for the other contestants. How many local editors or hopefuls got knocked out just so some guy could play his video in front of another audience? One he will never even see because god knows he's not attending the con.

I'm all for helping out cons that have entries, but there is no way that every con on the circuit is desperate for entries.

IMO, 4 cons is a good maximum.
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Re: The Lip Flapper : Volume 11.2 - Contests

Postby Pwolf » Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:54 pm

My personal opinion on "contest trolling":

While I'm all for giving the fans and con goers the best show and the best videos should be allowed to enter, it's also a contest, there needs to be standards and guidelines that are fair for all the those who enter. If you want to show the best videos the hobby has to offer, don't do it in a contest format, just show them to the audience. The moment you put "contest" in there, it's no longer just about entertaining the fans, it's about the editors as well. There needs to be a balance between the two.

That's my two cents at least.
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Re: The Lip Flapper : Volume 11.2 - Contests

Postby DriftRoot » Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:31 pm

This topic of trolling is an interesting one and I found the judges'/coordinators' viewpoint about putting on a good show not all that surprising, even if it's not one you see admitted openly very often...something that might be nice to see corrected. When the contest's stated purpose differs from the standards used to select entries, that's where I think there's a problem and hard feelings start to really percolate.

I guess the question comes down to the purpose of these contests, if you're going to start debating whether anti-trolling policies protect and encourage newer editors or just undermine the entertainment value of the contest itself. If you want a pure, entertainment-driven contest, then the doors are probably wide open to "trolls." If you want something else, then the doors can shut as tight as you want them. Regardless of which way it goes, someone out there will always have a different opinion about who should have gotten through those doors.

To address the topic of fairness to new editors from a different standpoint: I feel I'm in somewhat of an unusual position, in that I was a new editor who managed to produce an AMV which won awards at all but one of the five cons in which it was entered (Sakura-Con, Anime Boston, Tekkoshocon, AX). My purpose in entering was simply to entertain as many people as possible with this thing that I'd made, I wasn't after awards or notoriety or anything else. I also entered during a fairly short time frame of just a few months, without having any real idea of what the result was going to be (I had only desperate hope that I'd even make the finals). I recall being a bit fearful I would be labeled as a troll afterwards - while that was not my intention and I don't feel this is what I did, it still bothered me at the time. There were some other videos/editors on the con circuit which were getting a bad reputation as trolls, and I wondered how the average person could tell the difference between my intentions and theirs. Trolling can be an extremely subjective term. *

But actually - and this Lip Flapper discussion is the first time I've realized it - isn't this what the AMV community WOULD ideally want an aspiring new editor to do? Getting into the finals/winning awards at several big cons? I'm proof you don't have to be a veteran, popular editor to achieve this. It's not the name or the experience that counts, it's what you produce! Yeah, it's tough going up against really good, experienced editors...but that's sort of the nature of the game at that level. If you want to compete on that stage, you've got to bring your best game to the table, and if it's not good enough, well...how is that other peoples' fault? Get mad about it! Get inspired! Prove that you've got what it takes! Work your ass off! Enter a smaller contest!

Is this that generation gap thing, where some kids these days are so indoctrinated into the "everybody's a winner/special" mindset that they can't handle truly competing for something on the basis of actual skill? The older I get the more I seem to notice this is a state of affairs that actually exists. :uhoh: The older I get the more I seem to reference the older I get, too. -_-

*Throw in a littlelot of extra hot water I got myself into because of some inappropriate/offhand/misinterpreted comments I made about another AMV around this time, and I was fairly convinced the AMV community 'round here thought I was evil incarnate. Some still might.
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Re: The Lip Flapper : Volume 11.2 - Contests

Postby BasharOfTheAges » Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:12 pm

To clarify my previous sentiment, I don't think it's really the contest coordinator's job to police it... If some prescreeners let it tip their bias against it, so be it. It really should be a personal show of decency and restraint though, and not mandated by rules. That only leads to other, smaller cons being punished by not having good entries because their creators want to save them from the big cons that won't let them in if they win.

@driftroot Your motives might not be clear at that moment in time, but six months down the road if you're still sending the video everywhere and it's not by request of someone begging for entries, you're tolling it.
EDIT - excluding, of course, sending everything you make to AWA expo, because everyone does that. :awesome:
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Re: The Lip Flapper : Volume 11.2 - Contests

Postby kireblue » Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:31 pm

BasharOfTheAges wrote:EDIT - excluding, of course, sending everything you make to AWA expo, because everyone does that. :awesome:

exactly
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Re: The Lip Flapper : Volume 11.2 - Contests

Postby Radical_Yue » Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:52 pm

Pwolf wrote:My personal opinion on "contest trolling":

While I'm all for giving the fans and con goers the best show and the best videos should be allowed to enter, it's also a contest, there needs to be standards and guidelines that are fair for all the those who enter. If you want to show the best videos the hobby has to offer, don't do it in a contest format, just show them to the audience. The moment you put "contest" in there, it's no longer just about entertaining the fans, it's about the editors as well. There needs to be a balance between the two.

That's my two cents at least.


yes

and

BasharOfTheAges wrote:To clarify my previous sentiment, I don't think it's really the contest coordinator's job to police it... If some prescreeners let it tip their bias against it, so be it. It really should be a personal show of decency and restraint though, and not mandated by rules. That only leads to other, smaller cons being punished by not having good entries because their creators want to save them from the big cons that won't let them in if they win.


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Re: The Lip Flapper : Volume 11.2 - Contests

Postby TritioAFB » Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:57 pm

BasharOfTheAges wrote:EDIT - excluding, of course, sending everything you make to AWA expo, because everyone does that. :awesome:


I don't do it :awesome:
I prefer new stuff

But for example at my case, I'm very selective about the Cons. For example, I don't send stuff to Anime Boston, nor Anime Expo.
Things change when International Cons comes to scene, but I still keep the same policy. For example, Big Contest nor any contest from amvnews don't call my attention. But I'll be willing to submit something to Japan Expo or the AKROSS Con, since I spent more time in those communities, and seemed to understand the structure and the purpose of those Cons.

The point is: Isn't the purpose of the amvs to entertain? The policy here is that the video should be enough entertaining to be declared winner, no matter if it's award-winning or not. And, of course if the video looks decent. It's not like you can make any kind of video, submit it and then expect to be winner if the whole clip doesn't look like an amv
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