I just have to know...

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Re: I just have to know...

Postby Warlike Swans » Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:03 am

Fall_Child42 wrote:
Taite wrote: I've read a few fanfictions, but I'm not going to go and say that everyone in that community is a sick fuck, because I only read a few..


I'll say that!

Everyone in they fan-fiction community are sick disturbed individuals with poor writing ability and they also smell.

And I hear they hate puppies, the monsters!
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Re: I just have to know...

Postby JaddziaDax » Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:06 am

I find it amusing that a lot of "don't generalize us based on a few people" is getting said when we are all sitting on our high horses pointing fingers and generalizing the "youtube amvers" based on the few people we have actually interacted with :P

We can generalize till the end of time but really how one reacts to crit is based mostly on their own personality and experiences.
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Re: I just have to know...

Postby Taite » Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:20 am

Fall_Child42 wrote:
Taite wrote: I've read a few fanfictions, but I'm not going to go and say that everyone in that community is a sick fuck, because I only read a few..


I'll say that!

Everyone in they fan-fiction community are sick disturbed individuals with poor writing ability and they also smell.


Thanks, didn't want to look like a hypocrite :wink:


JaddziaDax wrote:I find it amusing that a lot of "don't generalize us based on a few people" is getting said when we are all sitting on our high horses pointing fingers and generalizing the "youtube amvers" based on the few people we have actually interacted with :P

We can generalize till the end of time but really how one reacts to crit is based mostly on their own personality and experiences.


I've spent years on youtube and I feel pretty safe generalizing on this matter. We take it more seriously than people who are only on youtube, which is probably why criticism is disliked there. "I'm just having fun, I don't need anyone's help. It's my amv" is quite typical on youtube.
However, your second statement is of course true. Generalizing is generalizing.
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Re: I just have to know...

Postby JaddziaDax » Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:24 am

I've spent years on youtube myself, in fact I remember that I found out about it because someone found my amv on there (way back before there were "youtube stars" and "official channels" and there were only 15 fruits basket amvs on it) and started emailing me :P So I think I have my fair say on the matter as well. Not to mention many people here are on youtube as well.

Still not everyone on youtube is like that, a good chunk of them are, but there are people here who have the same attitude about their videos here, they just might not be as vocal on the forums :P
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Re: I just have to know...

Postby Pwolf » Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:34 am

I guess it's all perspective but youtube does foster to those who want instant positive social gratification. Which leads to people not being able to take criticism very easily. My personal belief is that if you can't handle criticism then don't post something publicly or allow people to make comments. While we, here at the org, like to promote good criticism (wither it's negative or positive), youtube doesn't really have that social standard. It's so big and the amv scene there is so spread out into smaller groups and individual editors. So, you'll see a lot more "bad" or generalized criticism (such has "OMG THAT WAS AMAZING" or "YOU SUCK"). You also run into cross contamination where people who don't necessarily like amvs or know what they are will comment and criticize. Here, we don't really have to worry about that. That said, I think a lot of people's experiences with the tube can be seen negatively (because it's not serious) just as easily as someone would see the org in a negative light (because we are too serious). And of course visa versa. It's all based on perspective and experience.

Taite wrote: "I'm just having fun, I don't need anyone's help. It's my amv" is quite typical on youtube.


Honestly, I think there's nothing wrong with saying that (heck, I say that >.>). Just be sure you can justify it (and I can :P).
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Re: I just have to know...

Postby Taite » Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:47 am

JaddziaDax wrote:Still not everyone on youtube is like that, a good chunk of them are


My point.

Pwolf wrote:Honestly, I think there's nothing wrong with saying that (heck, I say that >.>). Just be sure you can justify it (and I can :P).


No, definitely nothing wrong in saying that. What I meant is, when giving criticism on youtube, that's typically the response you get. I think probably 3/5 I've offered crit, that was the response I got, which makes sense, but it also makes a good excuse for not listening to any crit, which is where the "justifying it" comes into play.
I understand some people simply don't want it, and I get that completely since I don't seek criticism out for my own videos unless people want to give it, and people try to make it out that way, when really they just can't take it anyhow.
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Re: I just have to know...

Postby BasharOfTheAges » Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:59 am

JaddziaDax wrote:I find it amusing that a lot of "don't generalize us based on a few people" is getting said when we are all sitting on our high horses pointing fingers and generalizing the "youtube amvers" based on the few people we have actually interacted with :P

We can generalize till the end of time but really how one reacts to crit is based mostly on their own personality and experiences.

If people had used the word "all" you'd be 100% right in correcting them, but the omission of clauses like "many," "most," or "the vast majority of" when they can be safely assumed in context is a rather lame form of splitting hairs. Generalities don't include outliers - that's implicit in them being generalities. Being able to cite counter-examples isn't really saying anything substantive. Not picking on your quote or anything - this general "anti-stereotype" mentality just bogs down communication and language and is intellectually dishonest. When you're already narrowed down to subgroups of subgroups like this, people understand if you don't say "all" you don't mean "all" if they're not willfully ignorant or don't have a PC axe to grind.
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Re: I just have to know...

Postby Fall_Child42 » Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:28 am

Fanfic writers, all fan-fic writers, are bad and smelly.

Let me be clear for Bashar.

100% of fan-fic writers, every single last one.

The people that write 3000 pages of fiction to the cats that walk across a keyboard and accidentally write a character name.

Every last molecule in every last thing that writes fan-fiction is filled with a disgusting fluid that pours out onto the pages of any available media and crudely mimics human language. A grotesque parody of a story emerges that can only have emerged from a soulless horror and must be intended to make good people go mad.

Have I read every piece of fan fiction? No. But I can extrapolate this because I read a part of a fan-fiction once.

I think.

Accidentally.
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Re: I just have to know...

Postby JaddziaDax » Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:32 pm

BasharOfTheAges wrote:If people had used the word "all" you'd be 100% right in correcting them, but the omission of clauses like "many," "most," or "the vast majority of" when they can be safely assumed in context is a rather lame form of splitting hairs.


The gist of what I've been reading here is "don't generalize us" "that sounds more like amvers on youtube" I didn't specifically read any "mosts" or "alls" so... yeah. I could be wrong since every time I've read a post in this thread I've been half awake which is how I usually read the org O: lol. (And that's why I used stick to copy and pasting answers on the tech threads for the longest time, till I got burnt out on it and decided to do something even more mundane instead.)

Also, for the record I'm not "correcting" I'm being amused by what I see as the general mood of this thread. ;). so...... yeah. *ahem* (I'm being a total ass :P)

Also: Pwolf is right, the format youtube has does foster such an attitude, it's not a good platform for giving any kind of crit, constructive or otherwise.

And I've had vast experiences with fanfic, they are either fairly well constructed porn (that ignores the design of the original source), or total piles of poo that smell of Twilight (which is also a pile of poo..). Troll fics make me laugh though :D
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Re: I just have to know...

Postby Pwolf » Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:51 pm

Taite wrote:No, definitely nothing wrong in saying that. What I meant is, when giving criticism on youtube, that's typically the response you get. I think probably 3/5 I've offered crit, that was the response I got, which makes sense, but it also makes a good excuse for not listening to any crit, which is where the "justifying it" comes into play.


Right, its a defense mechanism in some cases to make those who provided negative criticism (but perhaps good), potentially leave them alone while those who provide positive criticism continue to feed their ego. They can't handle the negative criticism so they try to block it out by saying they are just having fun and don't want help. I generally believe if you're only having fun, you don't have to justify it by saying so. If negative criticism came my way while i was just having fun I think I'd be more open to it honestly. When I say that, I wouldn't tell people "i'm just having fun, I don't need help", I would say "thanks for the comments" and leave it at that. I don't need to justify to people that I'm just having fun because it doesn't involve anyone else outside of me. But thats how I look at it i guess.
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Re: I just have to know...

Postby gotegenks » Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:28 pm

It's interesting that he kinda criticized editors and, just like in his example, people lost their shit and tried to make him see our way (kiiiiindalikeintheexample)

As a lot of people have said, the Org is the minority now, and we seem to believe that everyone on youtube, the new majority, is unable to take criticism. It's almost as if we're the outliers now like bashar said. SO what the op might have been thinking (within reason), how most, if not all, editors are unable to take criticism might just be true.

Also, what people have been saying about the lack of harshness on here as of late being the result of people moving to youtube out of their inability to take crit also strengthens the assertion that most editors can't take crit. "The bad ones that can't take crit go to youtube to get praise, and the good ones try their luck here to get more valuable praise," is what it's sounding like. Either way, we can't take crit.

Our intentions could be like that of the editor that op had his quarrel with. By posting here, knowing the reputation of this site, we all ask for crit, but do we really want it? If the video's good, even here, you're likely to get more compliments than not, and when you do in fact get criticism, if you're active on this site, then you've been conditioned to keep your cool and act like you're accepting it. But we put a lot of thought and sometimes Time into our videos, so when people find fault with it, it's easier to brush it off than to "accept it," especially when it's already announced and uploaded and finalized and there's virtually no way of going back. I don't know if i ever really consciously took anything from the negative comments on videos since i started coming here. Most of the improvement comes from beta testing. I always know some faults with my videos, but i have defense mechanisms in place to let me both accept and brush off those comments at the same time. But when i see negative comments that i don't agree with, i still get urges to lose my shit, i haven't had a popular announcement thread in a while so i still might still do it.

IDK though, i see a lot of humble newcomers in the announcement threads, so i could be wrong. I also love crit as long as it's before i upload or a while after i upload, and i do enjoy crit inbetween some times, just a lot less.
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Re: I just have to know...

Postby Leader Desslock » Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:45 am

I didn't mean to let this sit for so long, but it's been a hell of a week for me...

I did laugh aloud at the overt fanfic author bashing. My own impression of that community's work is that maybe 1 in 100 is worth investigating, and that only a small fraction of that is worth a reader's time. If 1 in 1,000 fanfics is well-written, that'd pretty much meet my expectations. I've read some that were as good as canon, but it took hours of searching to find any one of those decent stories floating among the vast seas of meaningless drek out there..

I posted this topic (or a link to it) over an AnimeNation as well, and I was finally blessed with a response that made me think a little bit. The highlights are here:

Jabberwork at AN wrote:Entertaining read...

Honestly, I don't think that Desslock's generalization of AMV creators is all that inaccurate; but that admission comes with one caveat.

... Desslock, as someone who has taught writing to others, don't you ever remember telling aspiring writers how absurd their egos must be to imagine their words worth reading?

... So, you ask why creators submit their work and fear negative responses? Simple. Because they're not good enough yet and a little part of them knows that. And the sad bit is that until they learn to step down and listen, they'll never be good enough.

I suspect you know this, though. Which is why I'm curious now.


I never thought about it that way, because I've never taught writing that way, and I was never taught to write that way. But... I can't just dismiss it, either. The more I tossed it over in my mind, the more I thought, "You know, that's almost a valid approach". I taught something comparable, of course, but... more along the lines of assuring the class that their perspective wasn't any less significant than those of great authors, i.e.: "Samuel Clemens? Just a pundit who grew up on the river. You're living in an information age beyond his wildest imagination. Write about that." or "Hemingway? An alcoholic expatriot asshole. He wrote about what he knew in a style he believed to be the most effective; you should do the same."

But... I think he has a point. When you're teaching any form of creativity, you have to teach self-confidence in one's expression. But ... can it really hurt to teach arrogance as well? I don't know. I guess that so long as one also teaches the arrogance of "you can take any criticism", then it couldn't hurt, but... I still think it's an interesting perspective.

Thoughts along those lines, anyone?

Also: Ha, thought people might jump on the chance to critique my posted writing (in the link). I don't care either way (I was personally happy with most of the piece), but I expected to get beat up a bit. Haha.
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Re: I just have to know...

Postby Warlike Swans » Sat Dec 03, 2011 2:18 am

I liked your Grinch parody. Main thing that clashed with my sensibilities was when you stuck to the metre at points when when Seuss did not, it messed with my inner Boris Karloff.

Critiques may be more difficult over the internet than they are in person. Being reduced to purely verbal communication (and removed from real time) may make it a lot more difficult to execute both gracefully and effectively. I am also much more inclined to articulating something difficult (i.e. vague) in person than I am in text.
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Re: I just have to know...

Postby Tailmon » Sat Dec 03, 2011 9:59 am

Leader Desslock wrote:II never thought about it that way, because I've never taught writing that way, and I was never taught to write that way. But... I can't just dismiss it, either. The more I tossed it over in my mind, the more I thought, "You know, that's almost a valid approach". I taught something comparable, of course, but... more along the lines of assuring the class that their perspective wasn't any less significant than those of great authors, i.e.: "Samuel Clemens? Just a pundit who grew up on the river. You're living in an information age beyond his wildest imagination. Write about that." or "Hemingway? An alcoholic expatriot asshole. He wrote about what he knew in a style he believed to be the most effective; you should do the same."

But... I think he has a point. When you're teaching any form of creativity, you have to teach self-confidence in one's expression. But ... can it really hurt to teach arrogance as well? I don't know. I guess that so long as one also teaches the arrogance of "you can take any criticism", then it couldn't hurt, but... I still think it's an interesting perspective.

Thoughts along those lines, anyone?


One of the big things that people do is criticize others when they do something. Critics criticizes others because they lack the creativity to do something on their own. They are often jealous of the creativity of others. Great writers are not ordinary run of the mill people. Had they listened to the critics like Desslock we would be missing on great classics and modern books that most of us buy and love to read. It's one thing to show someone how to make great grammar. Hell computers help now. But its just grammar its not "Style." It's not the way critics like." To be truthful we all have our ways of doing things and if others love to read it. "To hell with the critics!" Because they are often wrong about it.

If you spend all the time to create an AMV and put your heart and soul into it. And everyone likes it except a critic then your the winner. It's one thing to take this person under your wing if your another AMV person and show a trick or two about things that are wrong or technical issues that can be improved and fixed. People respond better to that type of help and teaching than someone saying "Your AMV sucks because you made ????? amount of mistakes and it you did this wrong and your clueless about ????

(Oh, and Desslock you need to check your spelling its bad. Just a non Grammar Nazi pointing it out for ya!) :dino:
Critics criticize because they have no other purpose in life than to be jealous of others that create.
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Re: I just have to know...

Postby Leader Desslock » Sat Dec 03, 2011 11:03 am

Warlike Swans wrote:I liked your Grinch parody. Main thing that clashed with my sensibilities was when you stuck to the metre at points when when Seuss did not...

My parody came in ... I forget now... about 1/3 longer than Seuss' original poem, and it was more accurate to the rhyme and meter. There were places where Seuss intentionally diverged from the meter (the extended rhyme at the end, for example), which I mirrored.

I'm glad you enjoyed it, though! Thanks for reading it.

Tailmon wrote:Critics criticizes others because they lack the creativity to do something on their own. They are often jealous of the creativity of others.

Please read Samuel Clemens' review of James Fenimore Cooper for a complete rebuttal of this sentiment, which is ridiculous and smacks of rationalization.

Tailmon wrote:Great writers are not ordinary run of the mill people.

Actually, the fact that most artists are ordinary people is their greatest strength as a writer/composer/artist.

Tailmon wrote:Had they listened to the critics like Desslock we would be missing on great classics and modern books that most of us buy and love to read.

That sentiment is predicated on an assumption that the great classics and modern books were written by people who never received harsh feedback and took it to heart to improve as writers. That's just as ridiculous as the sentiment you expressed above, of course.

Tailmon wrote:(Oh, and Desslock you need to check your spelling its bad.

ITT: Irony.
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