I just have to know...

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I just have to know...

Postby Leader Desslock » Sat Nov 26, 2011 1:56 am

All,

Most likely, none of you know me. I am not an AMV creator. I just joined this board to ask one question. This is the only thread in which I am likely to participate, and once this question is answered and this discussion has run its course, you'll probably never hear from me again.

If any of you happen to post over at AnimeNation, you'll probably recognize my name, but other than that, I don't really have much contact with the anime fanbase as a whole. I've been known to troll now and again, but this is actually a sincere question and not an attempt to troll your whole forum. I have no illusions about how poorly this question is apt to be received by your forum membership, but my intent is genuine discussion.

That said, I know nothing of your board. I don't know how tolerant your moderation staff is of flaming and so forth. All I can say is that if you feel inspired to post something that will get this thread locked or deleted, please don't. Flame me in PMs if you wish. Knock yourself dead. Roast me alive over at AN. I assure you, they won't stop you (the burden of having been a troll), and I can take it. Just don't post anything that's going to get this thread locked or deleted until I get the answer I'm seeking.

What is that question, you ask? Well, before I ask, a moment's perspective is in order.

I've been on the internet a long time (since before many of you were born). I've met a lot of people. I've met a lot of artists, writers, animators, short film producers, screenplay authors, etc. I'm a writer myself. I've taught writing and used to publish a magazine. There are several professional writers, artists and musicians in my family and in my immediate circle of friends. I know several artists over at AN quite well.

With these folks I've met and known over the years, I've put my stuff out there for them to review, and likewise they've given me their stuff to review. Some of those reviews have been good, some have been bad. I take 'em all in stride (as do the other artists I know). Some people will always like your stuff even when it's not your best, and some people will never like something you poured your heart and soul into, no matter how many awards you got for it. That's just how it is. The moment you put your work out there, the world is going to judge it. As an artist, you take their feedback (good, bad & ugly), use it to improve where you can, and you move on.

We get a large number of artists over an AN (we have a Fan Art and Fiction subforum dedicated to them), and by and large, they generally take feedback well. Nobody likes being told "you need to fix this chapter" or "the proportions on that character are odd", but... without that feedback, you'd never improve as an artist, right? So you take what they've said, see if there's some merit in it (there usually is), and your hopefully learn from your mistakes. Do better next time. Turn the page. We all go through it, it sucks sometimes, but since it's a necessary part of getting better as an artist, we do it.

But. (now we're getting to my question)

There is one group of artists that (as a group, from what I've seen on AN) has... I don't even know how to word it. They seem singularly unable to take even the tiniest bit of critical feedback. And that is the tiny group of artists posting on AN that produces AMVs.

YES, I KNOW THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS TO THIS RULE. YES, THERE ARE AMV CREATORS THAT TAKE CRITICAL FEEDBACK IN THE SPIRIT IN WHICH IT'S INTENDED. I AM NOT WHITEWASHING THE ENTIRE COMMUNITY BECAUSE OF A SUBSET OF INDIVIDUALS. DON'T EVEN BOTHER TAKING THAT TACK WITH ME.

What I'm saying is that I can criticize most folks' fanfiction just fine on a variety of sites. I can criticize fan art just fine on a number of sites. But the moment I suggest that someone's AMV is anything less than the acme of creative expression, that person invariably gets bent completely out of shape and starts to rationalize why I just don't "get" the merits of their work.

A recent incident on AN underscored this, which is what prompted me to start this thread over here. I'd have discussed this in his thread over at AN, except he deleted the thread. So I made a comment on his actual youtube video, which he ALSO deleted. So I'm left to ponder and discuss this over at what I assume is the Mecca of AMV creators.

Before you even ask, I'm not going to identify the user or his AMV. The thread was deleted on AN. I've checked that it's not in the archive. So I'm not trolling that individual, and I'll toss no bones out by which he can be tracked down. If he wishes to come forward, that's his concern.

Here's the way it played out (and please believe me when I say that this incident is fairly representative of AMV creators' reactions on AN over the years).

- USER posted a thread linking to AMV, requesting feedback.

- I posted a response asking if he wanted "1) honest feedback, or 2) mere praise", suggesting that past experiences showed that most AMV creators' reactions indicated they wanted #2, even when they asked for #1.

- USER indicated that yes, he truly wanted Honest Feedback.

- I obliged. The points I remember making (thread was deleted, so I can't verify) were:

1. The AMV contained footage containing credits and mismatched subtitles, which I discouraged (I view the use of "dirty" clips as an absolute beginner mistake)
2. The AMV had no narrative continuity. It was a bunch of quick cuts with background music. It was like a quick slide show with music. The cuts jumped in time.
3. The AMV didn't appear to be expressing anything beyond "aren't these scenes cool? I like this song."

My overall review was that I'd definitely seen worse, but the AMV was completely forgettable. The rating I think I gave it was "eh."


Could I have been a lot more harsh? Sure. But these were the basic "if I had to recommend fixing something in your next attempt, these are the areas I'd work on" suggestions. They were fair suggestions, too.

The response was that the thread was deleted by the USER (I verified this). So I posted on the user's youtube site "next time, either ask for praise or accept the honest feedback for which you've asked." Nothing more. I didn't criticize the work again (no point). I left it at that, signed my name, and was done with it.

Amazingly, I did get a response from the user. I'll walk through the highlights, keeping them anonymous:

"I apologize for deleting my thread and I really do appreciate your feedback on my amv because out of all of the amv's I put on here you were the first person to actually give me feedback when I asked for it."

...so that's a good thing, right? The problem would be... what, exactly?

"I really wanted to delete the thread before you posted again but when you did my honest reaction was oh ****! I guess I never really wanted any feedback, I just put that because I never really expect anyone to actually give me feedback. I really respected that you actually gave me feedback and that is not the reason why I deleted the post."

...Huh? So... the reason I joined your forum, created a thread, then asked for feedback is that I didn't want any. In fact, the entire reason I posted my creative work online, publicly available, is so that nobody would see it or comment on it in any way. Heaven forbid! So when you asked if I wanted feedback (warning me that most AMV creators don't really want it) and I confirmed that I did, this was really my way of begging you not to comment on my work in any way.

"To be fair though and this is no disrespect to you everyone judges amv's differently and I can tell that you haven't seen much of [color=#FF0000]show name deleted which makes it hard to believe why anyone would want to watch an amv of a show they haven't seen."[/color]

Bull excrement. This is sad rationalization. I saw an absolutely superlative AMV combining Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann and Mulan's "Be A Man" before I'd ever seen or knew anything about TTGL. It's what made me want to see the show, and I loved it. I've done the same with AMVs from other shows I haven't seen (Death Note, for one). Seeing the show from which the clips are taken is not a prerequisite for enjoying an AMV from that show, or at least, if the AMV is done right, it shouldn't be. An AMV should stand on its own as a creative work (just as fanart or fanfiction should do).

"But in the end I asked and I recieved and should have acted faster on what I really wanted but I hope we can put this behind us and next time I would appreciate if you commented to me on here and not on my youtube account... I am going to delete the comment off of youtube and no disrespect to you but I would rather keep it to this forum."

Translation: I'm scared that other people might tell me that they agree with your opinion.


SO NOW MY QUESTION:

What the **** is it with so many (in my person experience) AMV creators that: a) compels them to post their work publicly, b) compels them to ask for critical feedback, then c) causes them to freak the hell out when you find the tiniest fault with it?!

If they're so think-skinned that they wither under the tiniest shred of critical scrutiny, why are they bothering to post their work in the first place, much less asking for honest feedback? Wouldn't they be happier keeping their works to themselves? Or failing that, why would they ASK for feedback, knowing they don't want any?

Are there similarly thin-skinned artists and writers posting on the web? Absolutely. But for every one of them, I swear I've met a dozen or more AMV creators who were even more touchy.

Why is this? What is it about the AMV community that makes them proportionately less able to accept feedback, but still compelled to seek it? Am I the only one who's ever noticed or commented on this? Is it just a quirk of the AMV creators who've joined AN? What is it?


Another anecdote from AN, this one from years back: We had a member (forgotten the name) that similarly asked for feedback. We gave it to him, point for point. He took it, made another AMV, posted it. We told him he hadn't fixed the things we specifically mentioned, he insisted he HAD. So we posted screen shots to SHOW him (with time markers and everything) that no, he hadn't fixed anything. Guy flipped out and left the forums. His reaction is absolutely typical of AMV creators joining and posting on AN, to the point where we often cite his specific example before accommodating an AMV creator's request for feedback these days. But it doesn't help; they still react badly.

Don't you guys critique each others' works? Isn't that one purpose of this forum? To critique each other and help each other improve?


Whatever insight you folks would like to shed on this for me would be greatly appreciated, 'cause I just can't seem to wrap my head around the behaviours I've seen.
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Re: I just have to know...

Postby BasharOfTheAges » Sun Nov 27, 2011 8:22 pm

You do realize you're posting this question on a website that has been vilified as a haven for mean-spirited, elitist snobs because, unlike youtube, those of us dedicated to the hobby enough to post here actually hold feedback and critique in the highest regard.

You need to take a look at where you are. This isn't youtube. Fuck, this is a forum that wordfiltered youtube for years to shout from the tops of our lungs just how not youtube we were. This is a place where feedback like you claim to have given would be seen as uncharacteristically nice. You are painting with way to broad a brush.

Any appearance of a lack of harsh critique you might see in our announcement forums is probably due to the fact that most of best stuff in the hobby is announced here and people who produce utter shit are often too intimidated to even ask for feedback.

It's nice to hear that our reputation isn't as widespread as once thought, but your post shows an almost hilarious level of ignorance of the situation. This is all, quite literally, preaching to the choir.
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Re: I just have to know...

Postby CodeZTM » Sun Nov 27, 2011 8:47 pm

The attitude you describe has to do more with an individual person's attitude/maturity, and not the hobby in an entirety.
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Re: I just have to know...

Postby Fall_Child42 » Sun Nov 27, 2011 9:32 pm

That sure is a whole lot of words to ask

"Why do some people take criticism poorly?"
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Re: I just have to know...

Postby macchinainterna » Sun Nov 27, 2011 9:41 pm

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Re: I just have to know...

Postby ReggieSmalls » Sun Nov 27, 2011 9:44 pm

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Re: I just have to know...

Postby Prodigi » Sun Nov 27, 2011 9:52 pm

Leader Desslock wrote:What I'm saying is that I can criticize most folks' fanfiction just fine on a variety of sites. I can criticize fan art just fine on a number of sites. But the moment I suggest that someone's AMV is anything less than the acme of creative expression, that person invariably gets bent completely out of shape and starts to rationalize why I just don't "get" the merits of their work.

That's because AMV editors put hours and hours into AMVs, from the time consuming ripping and prepping, to the actual syncing of clips. Fan-fiction writers for the most part seem to write romanticized trash and slash fic that requires no imagination or ability.

...

You see what I did there? I took a small sample of my own experience with both editing and fan fiction writers and extrapolated it as a whole. Can you now see how what you've written could be interpreted in the same way by us? Yes, obviously you've had some bad experiences with editors not taking criticism. You know what you do then? Don't talk to them. If they're that high strung that they can't take the littlest bit of feedback then just leave them be and focus on the people who will.
Leader Desslock wrote:A recent incident on AN underscored this, which is what prompted me to start this thread over here. I'd have discussed this in his thread over at AN, except he deleted the thread. So I made a comment on his actual youtube video, which he ALSO deleted. So I'm left to ponder and discuss this over at what I assume is the Mecca of AMV creators.

Before you even ask, I'm not going to identify the user or his AMV. The thread was deleted on AN. I've checked that it's not in the archive. So I'm not trolling that individual, and I'll toss no bones out by which he can be tracked down. If he wishes to come forward, that's his concern.

Okay, so you don't indicate them by name, but it still appears you're going out of your way to enforce your own opinion on someone else who clearly doesn't want to hear it. After they deleted the initial thread, unhappy with your feedback, you felt it necessary to follow onto their youtube channel and make similar comments there? I'm not saying they weren't being childish for not taking any criticism, but somehow you're the bigger person for then taking it up with them on their public youtube video, and then also creating a thread about it (anonymous or not) on the, as you put it, Mecca of AMV creators? Seems a little backwards to me.
Leader Desslock wrote:but the AMV was completely forgettable. The rating I think I gave it was "eh."

Yes, I realise I'm taking this quote out of context and that you did make some valid points before it, I acknowledge that. However, following it with a comment like "eh" or stating that it was completely forgettable is hardly constructive feedback. If I were to say "well yes that shirt does look nice on you but your face just really ruins the whole thing" it would hardly be considered constructive. Your suggestions for fixes were fair, but your follow-up comments were completely unnecessary.

You started out sounding like a fairly intelligent person who actually had a legitimate question but the more I read the more I questioned this. Yes, I'm not denying some people in the hobby can't take criticism, but this is true of all hobbies and as I stated before you've taken a small sampling and extrapolated to a whole.

You write "I'm not trolling that individual" yet you then go and post private responses from them and then you try to systematically pick them apart while sound like over-opinionated swine. Anyone who uses the phrases "Heaven forbid!" and "Bull excrement" when responding to something someone else has said is generally not giving a fair and unbiased analysis of a situation.

Now if you read my response and think "well your own reply can be used against you because you've just done the exact same thing to me" well that's the point. I'm showing just how useless and uncessary your whole post was and how, in fact, you do seem to want some kind of visceral response from people because otherwise you wouldn't have written an essay and would have just asked a short well-worded question instead of pre-facing it with ass-covering and finger-pointing.

Good day sir.
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Re: I just have to know...

Postby macchinainterna » Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:11 pm

Prodigi wrote:
Leader Desslock wrote:What I'm saying is that I can criticize most folks' fanfiction just fine on a variety of sites. I can criticize fan art just fine on a number of sites. But the moment I suggest that someone's AMV is anything less than the acme of creative expression, that person invariably gets bent completely out of shape and starts to rationalize why I just don't "get" the merits of their work.

That's because AMV editors put hours and hours into AMVs, from the time consuming ripping and prepping, to the actual syncing of clips. Fan-fiction writers for the most part seem to write romanticized trash and slash fic that requires no imagination or ability.

...

You see what I did there? I took a small sample of my own experience with both editing and fan fiction writers and extrapolated it as a whole. Can you now see how what you've written could be interpreted in the same way by us? Yes, obviously you've had some bad experiences with editors not taking criticism. You know what you do then? Don't talk to them. If they're that high strung that they can't take the littlest bit of feedback then just leave them be and focus on the people who will.
Leader Desslock wrote:A recent incident on AN underscored this, which is what prompted me to start this thread over here. I'd have discussed this in his thread over at AN, except he deleted the thread. So I made a comment on his actual youtube video, which he ALSO deleted. So I'm left to ponder and discuss this over at what I assume is the Mecca of AMV creators.

Before you even ask, I'm not going to identify the user or his AMV. The thread was deleted on AN. I've checked that it's not in the archive. So I'm not trolling that individual, and I'll toss no bones out by which he can be tracked down. If he wishes to come forward, that's his concern.

Okay, so you don't indicate them by name, but it still appears you're going out of your way to enforce your own opinion on someone else who clearly doesn't want to hear it. After they deleted the initial thread, unhappy with your feedback, you felt it necessary to follow onto their youtube channel and make similar comments there? I'm not saying they weren't being childish for not taking any criticism, but somehow you're the bigger person for then taking it up with them on their public youtube video, and then also creating a thread about it (anonymous or not) on the, as you put it, Mecca of AMV creators? Seems a little backwards to me.
Leader Desslock wrote:but the AMV was completely forgettable. The rating I think I gave it was "eh."

Yes, I realise I'm taking this quote out of context and that you did make some valid points before it, I acknowledge that. However, following it with a comment like "eh" or stating that it was completely forgettable is hardly constructive feedback. If I were to say "well yes that shirt does look nice on you but your face just really ruins the whole thing" it would hardly be considered constructive. Your suggestions for fixes were fair, but your follow-up comments were completely unnecessary.

You started out sounding like a fairly intelligent person who actually had a legitimate question but the more I read the more I questioned this. Yes, I'm not denying some people in the hobby can't take criticism, but this is true of all hobbies and as I stated before you've taken a small sampling and extrapolated to a whole.

You write "I'm not trolling that individual" yet you then go and post private responses from them and then you try to systematically pick them apart while sound like over-opinionated swine. Anyone who uses the phrases "Heaven forbid!" and "Bull excrement" when responding to something someone else has said is generally not giving a fair and unbiased analysis of a situation.

Now if you read my response and think "well your own reply can be used against you because you've just done the exact same thing to me" well that's the point. I'm showing just how useless and uncessary your whole post was and how, in fact, you do seem to want some kind of visceral response from people because otherwise you wouldn't have written an essay and would have just asked a short well-worded question instead of pre-facing it with ass-covering and finger-pointing.

Good day sir.


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Re: I just have to know...

Postby Nessephanie » Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:16 pm

Prodigi wrote:Good day sir.

I SAID GOOD DAY!


also, what he said.
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Re: I just have to know...

Postby ReggieSmalls » Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:18 pm

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Re: I just have to know...

Postby Warlike Swans » Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:40 pm

Well, I've gotten quite a bit entertainment out of the responses here.

Seriously though Leader Desslock, I hope you do value critiques as much as you claim to because your writing could use work. You are long winded, unfamiliar with your audience, and I can only express joy that you are not in the social sciences since you seem so eager to generalize from a narrow sample.

Are you as bad at giving critiques of fanfics as you are at AMVs? Maybe the reason AMV creators on AN respond worse to critiques is that you are worse at giving them.
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Re: I just have to know...

Postby Qyot27 » Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:54 pm

What Bashar said. To a tee.


Also, while the Org has generally been viewed as the community hub for almost ten years, I remember my fair share of editors that would post in Announcements or Opinion Exchange and weren't at all prepared to get their stuff picked apart: they too were simply looking for praise, but they didn't get it. Those sorts of editors eventually realized that hosatchel...er, YouTube, was the place to get said praise and most of those sorts jumped over there, where such unwanted criticism could be avoided or easily ignored/deleted.

Now that YouTube is as ubiquitous as it is, it clouds the debate. Whether by totally obscuring the Org and making it into some elusive monastery site where one receives AMV editing enlightenment or being viewed as filled to the brim with elitist assholes (to be honest, I can only think of one or two posters I'm aware of that fit that description but that certainly doesn't stop the rumors), this place isn't the hub it once was. The general audience has since moved to YouTube. One only needs to look at the monthly rate of new catalog entries or uploads to realize that, comparing it to the site's usage peak 5 or 6 years ago.

The less serious editors starting on YouTube and then essentially 'graduating' to the Org or those that honestly want improvement gravitating here directly has shifted our demographics in regard to users who can handle critique well. At least those of us who remember the pre-YouTube days (or the short period where both were of fairly equal exposure) can recall seeing the same thinskinned-ness described in the OP. It's largely something seen in those who really don't want to get better at whatever it is they're doing - this occurs in all hobbies or fandom. Users that do have that drive very well could have had a period where they couldn't take criticism well, but if they really do wish to improve, they learn to get over themselves and grow a thicker skin in regard to learning their mistakes. As was mentioned, the seeming lack of harsh crit in the Announcements forum now is largely due to a lot of the editors that post on these forums having gotten those licks already and understanding that it comes with the territory.

On other fansites, this process isn't always so obvious, if it's there at all.
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Re: I just have to know...

Postby EvaFan » Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:19 am

The answer is clearly 42, if for some reason you still dont understand... That is a lack of understanding on your part.
"The people cannot be [...] always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to [...] the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to public liberty. What country can preserve its liberties, if it's rulers are not warned [...] that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants."-Thomas Jefferson
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Re: I just have to know...

Postby Shin-AMV » Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:51 am

Thats a rather tame response to criticism. I was expecting something more dramatic, especially with that much typed out. Anyways, reread Bashar's and Prodigi's posts to cover my general viewpoints on this whole thing or fall_child42's for the tldr version.
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Re: I just have to know...

Postby Radical_Yue » Mon Nov 28, 2011 7:58 am

Fall_Child42 wrote:That sure is a whole lot of words to ask

"Why do some people take criticism poorly?"


x2


That being said...Here is my point of view...

a) compels them to post their work publicly, b) compels them to ask for critical feedback, then c) causes them to freak the hell out when you find the tiniest fault with it?!

a) Well, it's a hobby. You make something you enjoy, the same with fanart, fanfiction, etc... and it makes you happy to share with friends. Sure, some people only get back into editing when contests come up but that pattern tends to be recognized rather easily and looked down upon for the most part. (Bad contest whores! BAD! >:|)
Do we have to share them? No. Can you give me a solid reason WHY we shouldn't share them? Good luck.
Due to a poor internet connection I wasn't able to upload first AMVs till well over a year after they were completed....and even though they were flaming piles of poo, it made me sad. Not because I was "missin mah chance at teh AMVz fame" but because I wasn't able to share something I loved doing and that made me feel happy with my friends. Being able to share them with the whole world was just an extra perk :p
When you've got something that makes you happy, it's kind of hard to not want to share it xD

b) Once more, it is indeed a hobby...but a large majority of the editors still want to get better at what they do. I'd have to say that the same rings true for just about any fan hobby. If you want to make something to express your feelings about a certain subject then you want to do it well. As for "critical" feedback, I'm not sure what the users on your forum are like but...it's actually very rare for me to come across someone LOOKING for critical feedback beyond friends coming to me in private. This brings up...

c) Oooooh, critical feedback :) I love it so <3
While as others have said, the response you'll get from your feedback will vary from person to person there is kind of a general answer for why people freak out.
Youtube. Hate to say it, but you can get famous there for anime gifs, hue cycling and club music. This leads people to think they're better than they actually are so when they DO receive negative feedback...they tend to flip out a bit. Even this site, which was known for it's "big meanie elitist editors" previously has softened into a big doughy disgusting marshmallow where video announcement threads may as well just have a "like" button so you can click it, make the editor happy and be on your way.
Anyone who knows me, knows that I adooore giving critical feedback, whether people want it or not xD When I get a good response to my feedback such as "While I may disagree with x and y, I understand your point of view. Thanks for taking the time to critique my video." I walk away happy to see there are still people out there who honestly care about their work, wanting to get better and NOT just in it for the praise. Not because "zomg I totally know what I'm taking about and u shuld listen to me" but because they know that with the good, comes the bad and they're willing to accept that and build upon it.
When someone responds by, as you've said...basically flipping their shit, or hell...reporting me (I've had it happen) theeeen, I lose a bit of respect for them. Everyone has the right to their own opinion and by posting your work in a public forum, you're basically welcoming all those opinions in with open arms. If you don't like what someone has to say, get over it because you're going to get it whether you like it or not.
But with the editors who aren't so into receiving feedback, I just kind of forget about them =p I'm not into trolling and without any kind of negative feedback to help them build in conjunction with the good feedback, they're probably not going to get much better or make anything revolutionary that will make me think different about them.

And then |:> :shark: |:>

Sorry about the grammar/spelling. It's not easy to blow dry your hair with one hand and type with the other D:
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