Can action have any originality?

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Re: Can action have any originality?

Postby BasharOfTheAges » Sun Dec 19, 2010 11:03 am

Phantasmagoriat wrote:
BasharOfTheAges wrote:I'm actually doing a genre chart for a con panel now instead of eating... fuck this conversation.
I should probably resurrect this before you do too much work:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=95998&hilit=concept+map
(specifically the branch on AMV Characteristics/Traits... although that's far from complete and probably riddled with inaccuracies)

I was going for something far more silly. The pizza got to me before I did much of anything to it. It's main purpose is to define and differentiate contest categories as part of a focus on the viewer for an AMV 101 panel. That contest (Anime Boston's) uses the VCA definitions of categories and has slightly expanded from there. Their definition of Action... they learned it from us.

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Dotted lines are secondary pathways. i.e. You can make an action video (defined by the editing style) scary and get horror, but most horror is suspense-y pans and fades with bursts of scary.

The reason Action, Drama, and Comedy are at the top is because I believe them to be the true top genres from which other genres are formed. I've also been playing the Android game Alchemy an awful lot and the idea of adding stuff in to create other stuff is appealing to me from a teaching point of view.
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Re: Can action have any originality?

Postby Beowulf » Sun Dec 19, 2010 12:41 pm

This whole thread asks the wrong question. Originality isn't a pre-requisite for a good action video. Good editing is.

Is Fluxmeister's Eternal Damnation an "original video"? Nope. Its amazing though.

Beat synch is one of the fundamental building blocks of music video editing, so in itself, its not "original". However, fast-paced beat synch, with the right song, flow, effects, style, can be original.

My own Hail to the Thief is just an action video with Evangelion. That itself is not original at all. However I'd like to think the mood it has, the style, and certain editing tricks it uses were original at the time.
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Re: Can action have any originality?

Postby godix » Sun Dec 19, 2010 12:51 pm

BasharOfTheAges wrote:Same reasoning states that Romance is nothing more than a certain focus slant on Drama... Now, the more I think about this the more the meta-discussion of genre seems a far more important topic to cover.

The only thing your chart seems to miss are the 'other' videos, which are mostly editing with very weird audio or heavily looped sync vids. Well, there are trailers missing also. But those have always been kinda the red headed step child of AMVs.

BasharOfTheAges wrote:EDIT - Anything that isn't focused on that intense connection between musical events and on-screen events (actions) is Drama. Violence alone != Action. Fighting alone != Action. It's how you edit, not the content.

So your belief is, basically, that action is nothing more than beat sync and if someone figured out a way to do 'action' without beat sync, it'd no longer be action by definition (or, perhaps, very very bad action)? Would you consider action? It's build entirely of beat sync after all.

8bit_samurai wrote:I've always thought of action to be physical drama, though instead of emotions being tossed around, it's fists and bullets and explosions and the such.

That's actually pretty close to how I define action. However, there is nothing about 'physical drama' that requires heavy beat sync. Although this topic popped up because I was trying to think of a way to focus on the physical like an action vid without doing beat sync and came up with nothing.

Beowulf wrote:This whole thread asks the wrong question. Originality isn't a pre-requisite for a good action video. Good editing is.

The thing is, I'm not asking for what is good action. I generally don't like the genre, but I recognize there are many very good videos in it that have no spark of originality at all. Good action is an entirely different topic. I'm just curious what could make an original action, and if doing so would take it out of the action genre by definition.

A few comments on specific videos mentioned, note that I actually like some of these vids so don't interpret these comments as harsh I hate them things. Although some I do indeed hate:
Whisper of the Beast is a cross between action and emo drama. Linkin park emo vids have been around long before it, so really it's just a well known example of a trend long established before it.

This Isn't What We Meant is not action. It takes more than an action sequence to be an action video. Look at it this way, Good Will Hunting had a bar fight in it IIRC, does that make it an action movie? It's a good vid, but I agree with VicBond's classification of it as a drama.

I never really considered Hold Me Now an action, although I can see why some would. If it is viewed as an action, it is a pretty unique one

Final Bleach Fantasy is far more parody than action, and the action bits were very much the typical action editing style.

Real Soviet Damage probably comes closest to what I was wondering about. It is very much an action video, but it maintains a much different feel than most action vids. Although I can't decide if it's originality is just that it's an action that doesn't want to make you slit your wrists or the unusual song/visual style or what.

Project Bonklers is a parody of action. It is very much a typical action video in editing style. That's the entire point of the video. Similarly, Welcome to Neo Tokyo is intentionally done as an action to a wildly inappropriate song. I can see why that could be considered somewhat original, but in my opinion true originality is something that goes in a totally different and unpredictable direction. Just mismatching sources isn't really unpredictable.

Be an Outlaw! is very much an action vid. Old school, but still, very stereotypically action. What's original about it?
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Re: Can action have any originality?

Postby MycathatesyouAMV » Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:00 pm

Naruto's Technique Beat is prolly the closest thing I can think of as to what I see youre trying to get at. Not really sure if you mean just the originality in the action editing itself, or if the story line if there is one, or concept is included etc.
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Re: Can action have any originality?

Postby BasharOfTheAges » Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:22 pm

godix wrote:
BasharOfTheAges wrote:Same reasoning states that Romance is nothing more than a certain focus slant on Drama... Now, the more I think about this the more the meta-discussion of genre seems a far more important topic to cover.

The only thing your chart seems to miss are the 'other' videos, which are mostly editing with very weird audio or heavily looped sync vids. Well, there are trailers missing also. But those have always been kinda the red headed step child of AMVs.

BasharOfTheAges wrote:EDIT - Anything that isn't focused on that intense connection between musical events and on-screen events (actions) is Drama. Violence alone != Action. Fighting alone != Action. It's how you edit, not the content.

So your belief is, basically, that action is nothing more than beat sync and if someone figured out a way to do 'action' without beat sync, it'd no longer be action by definition (or, perhaps, very very bad action)? Would you consider action? It's build entirely of beat sync after all.

Traditionally, yea. Action was a category that was inherently different from Drama. At the most basic level, Drama uses longer clips, fades, and relies on what's happening in the frames more. whereas Action uses hard cuts, relies heavily on beat synch and that presentation between the frames (i.e. the editing itself holds weight or value that the audience directly focuses on). If you take that concept of editing with the cuts you make and you start adding in non-violent sources you get stuff that's either upbeat (there are lots of sugary pop videos that fit into this) dance videos (kinda the same thing... except usually with the focus entirely on dance music and the action on screen being dancing) or effects-heavy vids which can be in any category really. Your example of Anthem isn't exactly using hard beats for most of the time. It has an ambiance to it that really fits with Drama, but the content seems to stem more from taking an effects based video, keeping the effects, and reducing the Action in it. It seems to have distilled into an 'Other' that a lot of videos with that kinda of audio have gone into. I don't think we have a common category for it aside from 'experimental' - but that just doesn't seem right because this type of thing is more common to see than that.
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Re: Can action have any originality?

Postby outlawed » Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:25 pm

I heard transformers 2 did pretty well with action fans despite being a completely unoriginal action movie.

Reference note: Fan + Anime + Music = AMV.

I think originality can exist but if you are looking for originality to redefine a construct that people intend to follow at its core to satisfy themselves or a particular audience you aren't going to get it. What I think can be original is clever use of music and footage. How rare is it even with all the action videos we have these days to actually see a top grade one made with Baroque or Classical era music? What about using African tribal drum rhythms? Editors don't necessarily need to redefine a core concept to showcase their own style.
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Re: Can action have any originality?

Postby Zarxrax » Sun Dec 19, 2010 2:23 pm

Would "Soul of an Angel" be classified as action? I think that was a highly original video.
I think Jbone did a number of original action videos. He's just weird like that.
Then we have Kevin Caldwell's Engel, one of the classic action videos that really broke a lot of new ground.
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Re: Can action have any originality?

Postby JudgeHolden » Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:29 pm

Let us be honest ... can't this really be said about any genre of AMV? I mean, many drama and comedy videos I see are not very original in concept and follow a basic formula. However, they are still good videos. So, I would harken back to what Julian said, that the editing is more important than how original the concept is.
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Re: Can action have any originality?

Postby 8bit_samurai » Sun Dec 19, 2010 5:44 pm

If you're looking for action videos that doesn't focus heavily on beat sync, than you most like come across (but not limited to) action videos that rely on lyric sync or videos with inappropriate sources. When it comes to lyric based action videos, I would assume you'll most like run into an action video with comedic undertones like Real Soviet Damage (if it's lyric synced, I never really paid attention to them), or action videos with drama undertones, like the over 9000 linkinballz vids. Unless it's like Welcome to Neo Tokyo, most inappropriate source action vids would most likely be parody vids that rely on beat sync.

I myself don't necessarily think that original action videos = action videos that aren't primarily focused on beat sync. Of course that doesn't mean there aren't original action videos that aren't focused on beat sync, and vice versa (though it would probably be harder to find them).
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Re: Can action have any originality?

Postby godix » Sun Dec 19, 2010 5:59 pm

BasharOfTheAges wrote:I don't think we have a common category for it [Anthem] aside from 'experimental' - but that just doesn't seem right because this type of thing is more common to see than that.

AKROSS has a psychedelic category for vids like this. Which isn't exactly the phrase I'd use to describe em, but there ya go.

JudgeHolden wrote:Let us be honest ... can't this really be said about any genre of AMV? I mean, many drama and comedy videos I see are not very original in concept and follow a basic formula. However, they are still good videos. So, I would harken back to what Julian said, that the editing is more important than how original the concept is.

For every other genre, I occasionally see something new. Not all the time of course, and they don't all immediately become the new AMV meme, but usually at least once a year there's a romance, drama, comedy, etc. that just comes off as unique and new. Action? Not so much, although a couple examples have been posted.

8bit_samurai wrote:I myself don't necessarily think that original action videos = action videos that aren't primarily focused on beat sync. Of course that doesn't mean there aren't original action videos that aren't focused on beat sync, and vice versa (though it would probably be harder to find them).

No, of course not. Someone else mentioned Naruto's Technique Beat and I mentioned Decoy in the OP. He did beat sync, but in such a way that it was original when he was active. And there are ways to beat sync that haven't been used much. I'd be quite happy to see unique and original use of beat sync. But still, there's more to amvs than matching the beat. Well, at least in genres other than action there is.
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Re: Can action have any originality?

Postby dj_ultima_the_great » Sun Dec 19, 2010 6:18 pm

I know that I have seen this idea before, but I'm going to go ahead and post something recent. This is the original version, since I think it works the concept better than the extended version that he just released.



It's one thing to sync to the beat. It's entirely different to work two sources together like this fairly seamlessly, and it's in the motion of the animation that the real "action" of this action video comes out. I don't typically keep action videos, nor do I keep ones that use a lot of anime I don't know, but I kept this one because it was original to me.

Generally speaking, though, I agree. Original action videos are harder than hell to find, and above all other genres, it's tough to create an original idea.


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Re: Can action have any originality?

Postby Knowname » Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:23 pm

I LOVE the ones that stop and start on the same note. That way, if you have it on repeat you never know when it's over until you've memorized a certain scene :)

^^obnoxiousness, THAT is the true meaning of originality!
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Re: Can action have any originality?

Postby Knowname » Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:39 pm

Phantasmagoriat wrote:Let's assume Originality just means something new. Then in order to make an original action video, you can introduce new conflict.

see that'a where many ppl go wrong, originality doesn't mean something that differs from the original! If so your answer would fluctuate GREATLY over time. Say Elvis. Was he original with his rock and roll hogwash? Taking the same definition of originality, is he still 'original' now?? Is he even 'original' as soon as the next person to rock was made? The last two answers are 'no' when, when first asked the answer was 'yes'?? What kind of coccamamee question is that?! It's not, the whole method is WRONG! The only way you can get a consistant answer on what is original is if something is done RIGHT! Extra points if it's new AND effective. But if it's RIGHT you get 70% of the credit!
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Re: Can action have any originality?

Postby Knowname » Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:48 pm

BasharOfTheAges wrote:The reason Action, Drama, and Comedy are at the top is because I believe them to be the true top genres from which other genres are formed. I've also been playing the Android game Alchemy an awful lot and the idea of adding stuff in to create other stuff is appealing to me from a teaching point of view.


I made a dramedy... it actually should be considered a romance, actually all romances are dramadys. Ala romantic comedy movies. I don't think a romantic movie outside of Casablanca could survive nowadays.
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Re: Can action have any originality?

Postby MycathatesyouAMV » Mon Dec 20, 2010 1:21 am

If your'e including concept and storyline, I would def. included WOTB, Spoil, Let's just be Super Cute Girls, and some others.
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