I think we need a "no star/comment at this time" rating

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I think we need a "no star/comment at this time" rating

Postby Athena » Tue Jun 23, 2009 2:35 am

#AMV wrote: [16:20] <Kionon> I FUCKING HATE STAR RATINGS
[16:20] <Kionon> Jesus Christ
[16:21] <Kionon> If I don't want to comment on a fucking video, that includes giving it any kind of star rating, so I shouldn't have to be made to do it at all.
[16:21] <Kionon> Jesus fuck.
[16:22] <Kionon> i just give everyone threes anyway
[16:22] <Kionon> absolutely no fucking purpose to it
[16:22] * simofc90 has quit (Ping timeout)
[16:22] <yok0> but a 1 is so much easier
[16:22] <yok0> why would you do that?!
[16:22] <Kionon> Three is neutral.
[16:23] <Kionon> If I like a video, I will tell the editor.
[16:24] <Kionon> If I don't like the video, I will tell the editor.
[16:24] <Kionon> If I just don't care, I have NOTHING TO SAY.
[16:24] <Kionon> NOTHING.
[16:24] <Kionon> NO GODDAMNED STARS
[16:24] <Kionon> NOTHING
[16:25] <Kionon> Making me choose a star rating is tantamount to forcing me to express myself in a way I do not want to.
[16:25] <OropherZ|SO4> i have to agree
[16:25] <Kionon> Very anti-artistic.
[16:25] <OropherZ|SO4> 'you cannot download anymore until you have...'
[16:25] <OropherZ|SO4> annoys me
[16:25] <OropherZ|SO4> + i cbf streaming any vids of star ratings
[16:25] <OropherZ|SO4> not to mention you end up duplicating star ratings for streamed vids
[16:26] <Kionon> I'd be okay with a button that says "I have no comment on this video."
[16:26] <Kionon> I think I should have that right.


Potty mouth aside, I really do feel that being forced to give a star rating when I want to remain silent on a video is really... well... kinda being a bully, Org. If I don't wish to express myself on a given video, why should I feel I have to? Now, I realise there may be logistical reasons for limiting downloads, but in that case, why not just give me a button that says "no comment?" I'd rather click that ten times on my page than give everyone threes just to get it out of the way. Is there any way to implement a "no comment" option?
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Re: I think we need a "no star/comment at this time" rating

Postby BurningLeaves » Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:05 am

Sorry Kio but I disagree, alot of people get no feedback at all from their vids and that is what I think separates the org the most from other sites out there. Granted a star rating isn't the most reliable method of determining how well your video went over but you can use it for a general ball park range. Unless someone doesn't care and just gives all 3's =[ For people who don't get alot of opinions, or don't get replies/post in the announcement forum a star rating is the best you're going to get. Not many people are like you and put forth effort in the announcement forum and other places to tell the editor what they thought of a video, so forcing them to leave a star rating is really the best way to bring some small amount of feedback back to the editor.
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Re: I think we need a "no star/comment at this time" rating

Postby Athena » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:25 am

BurningLeaves wrote:Sorry Kio but I disagree, alot of people get no feedback at all from their vids and that is what I think separates the org the most from other sites out there. Granted a star rating isn't the most reliable method of determining how well your video went over but you can use it for a general ball park range. Unless someone doesn't care and just gives all 3's =[ For people who don't get alot of opinions, or don't get replies/post in the announcement forum a star rating is the best you're going to get. Not many people are like you and put forth effort in the announcement forum and other places to tell the editor what they thought of a video, so forcing them to leave a star rating is really the best way to bring some small amount of feedback back to the editor.


And I disagree that the editor should be interested in taking seriously any forced communication. I refuse to upload to local because of star ratings and QCs. I don't want them. If you really care, you are going to take the time to write me an OP, post in the announcement thread, or drop by #amv and say hi. C&C is a very important process, and certain standards should apply. If I have nothing more to say than can be summed up in a star rating, I should probably just remain silent. If I wanted one liners and star ratings, I would be at the tube. It is the quality of those individuals willing to put forth the effort to critique that separates us from "other sites." With preview being fully integrated for local videos, I fear QCs/Star ratings now make it less likely editors will get decent feedback. Not more.
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Re: I think we need a "no star/comment at this time" rating

Postby guy07 » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:51 pm

Maybe a expiration date on starts like a week after you watch the video? Maybe ...? No ...?
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Re: I think we need a "no star/comment at this time" rating

Postby Zarxrax » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:49 pm

You only have to leave a star rating if you download from local. Think of it as the payment for using this free service.
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Re: I think we need a "no star/comment at this time" rating

Postby Athena » Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:07 pm

Zarxrax wrote:You only have to leave a star rating if you download from local. Think of it as the payment for using this free service.


Fine. I'm a donator. And, I personally don't even use local space. Give donators a no comment button. We're the one's paying for the service!
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Re: I think we need a "no star/comment at this time" rating

Postby Otohiko » Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:18 am

I think the compulsory nature of giving stars is about the only thing that makes the rating useful. Scrap the compulsory-ness and it really becomes a very superficial mechanism - might as well scrap the ratings altogether.

I think the system is flawed but, in the end, it does more good than harm as a weather-vane on actual attitudes of viewers to a video. It doesn't have to be taken too seriously on either the giving or receiving end, but for both sides it's worth the split-second it takes to look over. Saving that brief moment of your attention per video really isn't worth scrapping the whole system for, IMHO.
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Re: I think we need a "no star/comment at this time" rating

Postby Athena » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:36 pm

Otohiko wrote:I think the compulsory nature of giving stars is about the only thing that makes the rating useful. Scrap the compulsory-ness and it really becomes a very superficial mechanism - might as well scrap the ratings altogether.


Don't tease me. You know the admins will never scrap it.

And I don't find it useful at all.

I think the system is flawed but, in the end, it does more good than harm as a weather-vane on actual attitudes of viewers to a video. It doesn't have to be taken too seriously on either the giving or receiving end, but for both sides it's worth the split-second it takes to look over. Saving that brief moment of your attention per video really isn't worth scrapping the whole system for, IMHO.


Does it? Does it, really? I think not. How can we trust that even the aggregation of star ratings are accurate? I give everyone threes, so I know, at least, I skew every video I watch. I am sure there are plenty of people who give straight ones or straight fives. However, I have yet to talk to anyone who actually sits down and thinks, "Now what star rating should I give this, gotta be fair..." No. Those people write opinions or comment on the announcement thread.

And star ratings tell me nothing about my videos because I don't use local. I'm quite happy that way.
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Re: I think we need a "no star/comment at this time" rating

Postby BasharOfTheAges » Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:39 pm

Kionon wrote:
I think the system is flawed but, in the end, it does more good than harm as a weather-vane on actual attitudes of viewers to a video. It doesn't have to be taken too seriously on either the giving or receiving end, but for both sides it's worth the split-second it takes to look over. Saving that brief moment of your attention per video really isn't worth scrapping the whole system for, IMHO.


Does it? Does it, really? I think not. How can we trust that even the aggregation of star ratings are accurate? I give everyone threes, so I know, at least, I skew every video I watch. I am sure there are plenty of people who give straight ones or straight fives. However, I have yet to talk to anyone who actually sits down and thinks, "Now what star rating should I give this, gotta be fair..." No. Those people write opinions or comment on the announcement thread.

I thought there was something in the system to account for that by weighting the scores of those people less and less the more they show no variance.
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Re: I think we need a "no star/comment at this time" rating

Postby Athena » Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:13 pm

So, if that's true, then the situation is even worse. All that work clicking hundeds of star ratings only for it not to count? Perfect example of the need for another option.
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Re: I think we need a "no star/comment at this time" rating

Postby Nya-chan Production » Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:20 pm

Offer some instead of pointless whining, then? |:
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Re: I think we need a "no star/comment at this time" rating

Postby Corran » Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:41 pm

Kionon wrote: However, I have yet to talk to anyone who actually sits down and thinks, "Now what star rating should I give this, gotta be fair..." No. Those people write opinions or comment on the announcement thread.


Raises hand. I haven't left an opinion since March 2004 and I rarely post in AMV Announcement these days. I know I would not give star ratings if I didn't have to (except on rare occasion) just as I don't currently give quick comments. However, because I have to rate them doesn't mean I'm going to rate blindly.

For me it goes like this:

1 = I hated it
2 = Didn't like it
3 = Neutral
4 = Liked it
5 = Loved it

It is not hard for me to pick one of those. I don't have to sit down and think about it carefully or try not to offend the creator. I just go with my gut feeling.

I think most people rate similarly otherwise the all time star scale would not have the same ranking. The videos at the top of this list are videos I would expect to win in audience vote contests. Whether or not a "seasoned amv critic" would agree with the list is beside the point. The star system is not about e-penis bullshit. It is about finding videos that would normally go overlooked.

If the star scale system was absolute crap, the personalized suggestion query tool would not generate useful results. However, because I rate how I feel, my results (particularly when using method 2) tend to be fairly good.

Convincing Phade to let me make the change you want would happen when hell freezes over. I've argued with him about changing less important details of the system to no avail. Even if he had no problem with it, there is no way I'm going to. Making the streaming system opt-in/out was a major PITA in itself.

So my advice is, quit treating star ratings like they should be some kind of absolute indicator to the quality of a video, and keep giving your 3's if you can't be bothered to take one second to rate with your gut feeling.

Kionon wrote:Fine. I'm a donator. And, I personally don't even use local space. Give donators a no comment button. We're the one's paying for the service!

I'm not getting paid so... :down:



[16:25] <OropherZ|SO4> + i cbf streaming any vids of star ratings
[16:25] <OropherZ|SO4> not to mention you end up duplicating star ratings for streamed vids


In case you are reading this thread... You don't end up duplicating star ratings. :? I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion...
If you've previously rated a video and then watch it via streaming, the rating dialog will not appear on the streaming page. If you:
1) start watching a video via streaming
2) open the members main page after 30 seconds in another window
3) rate the video in one of the windows
4) and then rate it again in the other window
then you will actually get an error stating the video has already been rated and that if you want to change it you should go to the Local Downloads page.
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Re: I think we need a "no star/comment at this time" rating

Postby Athena » Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:57 am

Corran wrote:Raises hand. I haven't left an opinion since March 2004 and I rarely post in AMV Announcement these days. I know I would not give star ratings if I didn't have to (except on rare occasion) just as I don't currently give quick comments. However, because I have to rate them doesn't mean I'm going to rate blindly.


Okay. So one.

It is not hard for me to pick one of those. I don't have to sit down and think about it carefully or try not to offend the creator. I just go with my gut feeling.


Okay, so not one. I didn't say it was hard. I said it was silly.

I think most people rate similarly otherwise the all time star scale would not have the same ranking. The videos at the top of this list are videos I would expect to win in audience vote contests. Whether or not a "seasoned amv critic" would agree with the list is beside the point. The star system is not about e-penis bullshit. It is about finding videos that would normally go overlooked.


This has not been my experience. I also have no idea what would win in audience vote contests, and on a totally personal note, I do not care. With the exception of certain individuals, such as quadir, I am not remotely interested in feedback from non-editors. If I as, I would not be on the Org. And If I have nothing worth saying from an editor's point of view, then I usually say nothing at all. And, yet, if I DO feel compelled to leave an amusing little ditty of a response, I do so in the announcement forum, where it is part and parcel of the community code.

If the star scale system was absolute crap, the personalized suggestion query tool would not generate useful results. However, because I rate how I feel, my results (particularly when using method 2) tend to be fairly good.


Every highly rated AMV, with the exception of anything done by Koop, that I have seen come up has been something I do not want to watch. So I am not sure how you argue the system generates useful results or isn't total crap. My experience has been the opposite. If I want to know what the good amvs are, I just have to ask. I rarely ever use search function at all, and mostly only get new videos via the announcement forum or because of contests because I cannot trust star ratings as they now stand.

Convincing Phade to let me make the change you want would happen when hell freezes over. I've argued with him about changing less important details of the system to no avail. Even if he had no problem with it, there is no way I'm going to. Making the streaming system opt-in/out was a major PITA in itself.


This doesn't surprise me. I'm pretty upset with him, actually. Either he runs the site or he doesn't. He's never around, but he seems to hog tie you guys in a number of ways. Not to mention I am only part of this community as much as I am because I promised him, personally, years ago I would, and then he skipped out. I honestly believe he has forgotten that entirely. I know he's busy, and I know he has a life, but I still think it's pretty low to keep involving yourself in something you have shown yourself to no longer be interested in.

As for you not doing it, fine. It was just a suggestion. One I hold very dear because I really do believe that it is not in sync with freedom of expression of criticism, something this community prides itself in. I'd ask if you could do a zero stars button, but I figure that too would be the same as a no comment button. If all this is a simple logistical point "the system won't allow it, I can't program that" then it's fine. Just say so. I understand technical limitations, and I have no real knowledge of programming, so if you say a null result can't be integrated, or can't be without great difficulty, then I get that. I will take your word for it. I will not consider it a matter of disagreement, but rather a practical obstacle. I would be a douchebag for holding against you what you cannot reasonably do.

So my advice is, quit treating star ratings like they should be some kind of absolute indicator to the quality of a video, and keep giving your 3's if you can't be bothered to take one second to rate with your gut feeling.


Actually, I think they're no indicator whatsoever of the quality of a video. And, I can be bothered. I call that an announcement thread post or an opinion. I give threes because I think the system is ridiculous. Since it is ridiculous, it is only fair to give everyone the same neutral star rating. Everyone. Because I do care about being fair.

I'm not getting paid so... :down:


...Totally not the point.
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Re: I think we need a "no star/comment at this time" rating

Postby CodeZTM » Thu Jun 25, 2009 2:22 am

Wow. I never ever thought these words would ever leave my mouth. O_o I agree with Kionon.

I dunno. It's not that I'm going to file a federal case over it to the mods and admins, but it really is quite irritating. I understand that the search engine uses it as a search function and that it's a good way in theory to grade AMV's, yet it doesn't work in practice. Usually, I download my limited 10 AMV's, then go through and pick out the ones I REALLY liked and give them fives. The others I give three and move on with my life. It's a flawed system (everyone knows that...). I'd love to suggest that it be a donator-only choice to use star ratings, but that would probably take a TON of work on the part of the mods/admins/coders. Work that would better be applied elsewhere. All other arguments have been made regarding my beliefs and probably more eloquently than I can put it.

But then again, I think the star rating system is good for appearances. As it is, this hobby is horribly illegal. Most anime and music companies don't mind (note the qualifying statement MOST)because it looks like we're an editing community. Star ratings taht prevent us from downloading past 10 AMV's at once can slightly bring the illusion that people aren't downloading AMv's to watch Anime. Plus, as an Opera user, I'm able to download as many AMV's as I want simultaniously (I still have no clue how this works with Opera, as none of my other browsers do it). The 10 limit probably is a means of saving Bandwidth/Server Load.

I dunno. I've always had to deal with and I've never loved it. But I'm pretty sure we're just going to have to deal with it.
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Re: I think we need a "no star/comment at this time" rating

Postby hasteroth » Thu Jun 25, 2009 3:09 am

Hmmm.... Words I never thought would leave my mouth... well they didn't anyways.... I typed them

I agree with Code.
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