Subforums for MMV and CMV ?

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Subforums for MMV and CMV ?

Postby Snowcrash » Wed Mar 16, 2011 12:22 pm

Everything is in the title.

So I thought it could be interesting to create a subforum for MMV in the AMV annoucement. I know it exists already a MMV thread but honsetly it is not very attractive to post our creation. Honestly when someone post one of his creation you get like, what, 2-3 coms max ?
It could be nicer to open our own thread to announce any creation which is not an AMV.
Of course we won't upload them on the org catalog, but at least creators will get a better "view" for their creations and feedback.
It costs anything to org I guess.

I suggest two subforums in the AMV annoucement where each creator cad do their announce:
- one for MMV (Movie Music Video),
- one for CMV (Cartoon Music Video or Animated Music Video) which concerns all stuff which is not considerated as an anime (by extension which is not japanese).

You can stick some light rules about the presentation of the video (like source, music, streaming, ddl, etc... on the model of AMV announcement).

Of course the main purpose of Org is stimulate the creation of AMV. But it does not exist an english specialized website about MMV (as far I know) except Creaspace which is russian.
So I thought it could be a great idea to have at least a small section about the MMV/CMV for the org community.

Hope my suggestion will be considerated by admins and maybe shaped :bzz2:
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Re: Subforums for MMV and CMV ?

Postby CodeZTM » Wed Mar 16, 2011 12:32 pm

We've actually been trying to get one for quite a while now, but it's been oft ignored or rejected all together. For now, in General AMV, there is a live action video announcement thread. >_>'
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Re: Subforums for MMV and CMV ?

Postby Nya-chan Production » Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:57 pm

At the moment, there is nothing like that planned, if I remember the opinion of moderators and if it hasn't changed.

The MMV thread (or LAMV, because MMV = Manga Music Video) is enough at the moment. If you want more replies, you could post it as a separate thread in General section.

Of course the main purpose of Org is stimulate the creation of AMV. But it does not exist an english specialized website about MMV (as far I know) except Creaspace which is russian.

"It doesn't exist, so you should create it for us" is unfortunately not a valid reason for opening a subforum on themed forums. It's like asking to open a subforum for rating the quality of various brands of teas, if I overdo it. You can always open your own smaller forum (it's a few hours work today), IRC channel or site. Last time it was talked through there were considered no significant gains from opening such subforum, and so for the time being it won't be opened.
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Re: Subforums for MMV and CMV ?

Postby EvaFan » Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:02 pm

I know I'm late to this thread but it needs to be said. I strongly oppose this idea that a few mods ultimately decide whats best for the community. You can sit in your irc channel and discuss it alone but thats just going to ostracize what the community as a whole thinks and wants. This forum should be more interactive with the community and not rely on just mods for decisions on its future. You're moderators not governors for the org. Start using things like polls, you may find interesting results. Seriously.
"The people cannot be [...] always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to [...] the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to public liberty. What country can preserve its liberties, if it's rulers are not warned [...] that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants."-Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Subforums for MMV and CMV ?

Postby Nya-chan Production » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:00 am

I'll write down one quote I remembered well from a few years ago when a fight spurred on smaller forums I know.

Forums are not democratic.


Which is completely true. We may make polls, you can force us into it, but unless you are mods, or in our case, more likely admins (because moderators can't do anything with forums structure), you can't do anything about it. The only solution if you dislike this system is to go somewhere else and make your own forums.

And then watch how people blame you for not being democratic and listening to the community when you deny them their WONDERFUL idea of forums for rating tea brands ;>

Btw, admins ARE governors of the Org - and they bear all the responsibility for it - from discontent users to massive exodus. I don't mean this to sound harsh, but it is a fact - most of the communities that work overly democratic-y tend to lose focus of the original theme and change into clutters of subforums of subforums of off-topic.
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Re: Subforums for MMV and CMV ?

Postby EvaFan » Fri Mar 25, 2011 2:18 pm

Well when all thats left is mainly forum regulars, and people average 0-10 posts unless your popular on the announcement forums do you think your ideology is working? You're clearly being high and mighty. There is nothing wrong with a democratic forum. If a poll proved that the community was more in favor of a LAMV/MMV thread (that is still related to editing) then why not give them what they want.

Nya-chan Production wrote:Btw, admins ARE governors of the Org - and they bear all the responsibility for it - from discontent users to massive exodus. I don't mean this to sound harsh, but it is a fact - most of the communities that work overly democratic-y tend to lose focus of the original theme and change into clutters of subforums of subforums of off-topic.


Thank god you're only a mod, I only hope kariudo and doki don't feel the same way. I have never ran into a forum that used polls and worked with the community instead of for/against them that strayed from what it was created for, the community. This kind of thinking is why this forum is practically dead. So what if the focus and theme is lightened up on, its still there. The a-m-v.org main page and all its features are still there. The only difference is the community has more ways to interact and discuss. Seriously, stop being the lock and start being the key.
"The people cannot be [...] always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to [...] the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to public liberty. What country can preserve its liberties, if it's rulers are not warned [...] that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants."-Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Subforums for MMV and CMV ?

Postby Nya-chan Production » Fri Mar 25, 2011 3:13 pm

EvaFan wrote:Well when all thats left is mainly forum regulars, and people average 0-10 posts unless your popular on the announcement forums do you think your ideology is working? You're clearly being high and mighty. There is nothing wrong with a democratic forum. If a poll proved that the community was more in favor of a LAMV/MMV thread (that is still related to editing) then why not give them what they want.

Nya-chan Production wrote:Btw, admins ARE governors of the Org - and they bear all the responsibility for it - from discontent users to massive exodus. I don't mean this to sound harsh, but it is a fact - most of the communities that work overly democratic-y tend to lose focus of the original theme and change into clutters of subforums of subforums of off-topic.


Thank god you're only a mod, I only hope kariudo and doki don't feel the same way. I have never ran into a forum that used polls and worked with the community instead of for/against them that strayed from what it was created for, the community. This kind of thinking is why this forum is practically dead. So what if the focus and theme is lightened up on, its still there. The a-m-v.org main page and all its features are still there. The only difference is the community has more ways to interact and discuss. Seriously, stop being the lock and start being the key.

OK, so you suppose forcing mods and admins to do as you wish is always right and that mods are never right when going against the users.

Honestly, over the past half of year, there were many introduced changes, mainly from doki. And still it's all about the same - wanting AMV unrelated changes. Nobody has gone out of THEIR way and created a small forums or anything for this "So great and TOTALLY living LAMV scene". You just suppose we have the will, manpower and enthusiasm to create few new subforums.

It reminds me of a small children wanting that shiny gun. Yes, I can give it to him, but then I will have to look after him all the time and fear what it'll do. Or I can take it away and the kid will cry and blame me for not giving him the chance to prove that "it'll be alright". I know that many of the users are adult and able to communicate, but still, it's unnecessary risk for a very minor part of the users.

The next thing - I have seen quite a few forums, that had a page or clearly given theme - and forums which were a clusterbomb of /b/-related quotes and huge signatures. And the page, who would've thought, was completely dead. Moderation is from the word "to moderate" - and it means moderating EVERYTHING, including stuff like this. I can't just go around this and say "Screw it, I don't care". It might be that the rest of mods even overrule me - hell yeah!

_________________________________________________________________________________________________

Now see that long line?

I agree with you in many points as well - especially with the fact that incorporating a poll to see how big percentage of users want something is a nice idea. But I just can't grant you this, and threads as a mean for asking this important thing just don't work - that's a fact.
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Re: Subforums for MMV and CMV ?

Postby Pwolf » Fri Mar 25, 2011 3:35 pm

one of the rules for announcing a video is that it must be in the database. if we start allowing people to announce videos in the announcement thread that aren't allowed in the database (LAMV/CMVs) then we are going against the foundation and focus of the website. It seems like more people in the community would rather maintain the foundation the website was built on then change it, which means, not allowing people to announce LAMVs. That's what the off topic forum is for, use it.
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Re: Subforums for MMV and CMV ?

Postby EvaFan » Fri Mar 25, 2011 4:30 pm

Nya-chan Production wrote:It reminds me of a small children wanting that shiny gun. Yes, I can give it to him, but then I will have to look after him all the time and fear what it'll do. Or I can take it away and the kid will cry and blame me for not giving him the chance to prove that "it'll be alright". I know that many of the users are adult and able to communicate, but still, it's unnecessary risk for a very minor part of the users.


This analogy is stupid, not only are you comparing the the vast community to children your comparing guns to threads. Honestly, I won't bother anymore, I've said what I've wanted to and its a shame that you think the way you do in my opinion.

Pwolf wrote:one of the rules for announcing a video is that it must be in the database. if we start allowing people to announce videos in the announcement thread that aren't allowed in the database (LAMV/CMVs) then we are going against the foundation and focus of the website. It seems like more people in the community would rather maintain the foundation the website was built on then change it, which means, not allowing people to announce LAMVs. That's what the off topic forum is for, use it.


When did it suddenly become ok for popular people to announce something not from the database then: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=104144 ? Is it ok to throw it in there as extra or something?

The idea of having a LAMV/MMV thread would be to separate them obviously, the rule for the amv announcement thread would remain the same. Also, since when do you speak for the vast majority of the community? Have you gone around surveying them or something or is your majority the scope of the IRC channel?

The whole "manpower" argument is bogus considering how many people here would be willing to help out. I can understand the "Well why don't you go create you're own forum" argument but that separates the communities. Why not share and discuss with the community you already are with and like?
"The people cannot be [...] always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to [...] the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to public liberty. What country can preserve its liberties, if it's rulers are not warned [...] that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants."-Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Subforums for MMV and CMV ?

Postby Corran » Fri Mar 25, 2011 4:39 pm

EvaFan wrote:This kind of thinking is why this forum is practically dead.


If anything, participation in the forum has been one of the most consistent trends on this site. It wasn't until the forum was upgraded to phpbb3 out of necessity that this changed.

Corran in this thread wrote:Image


What is the more likely cause for fewer posts and threads? Is it because the admins and moderators don't cave in on non-amv subforums/the edit button or is it because the overall activity of the site continues to trend downward?

They've already done things that Phade probably wouldn't (e.g. bring back an OT forum). Demanding that the org be some sort of democracy or disparaging moderators and admins as power hungry people that don't share the interest of this site being prosperous again is not going to make things better.
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Re: Subforums for MMV and CMV ?

Postby Pwolf » Fri Mar 25, 2011 4:47 pm

EvaFan wrote:
Pwolf wrote:one of the rules for announcing a video is that it must be in the database. if we start allowing people to announce videos in the announcement thread that aren't allowed in the database (LAMV/CMVs) then we are going against the foundation and focus of the website. It seems like more people in the community would rather maintain the foundation the website was built on then change it, which means, not allowing people to announce LAMVs. That's what the off topic forum is for, use it.


When did it suddenly become ok for popular people to announce something not from the database then: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=104144 ? Is it ok to throw it in there as extra or something?


The original poster is still posting a video that's in the database vs only posting the one that's not. And it's not just "popular" people who do that.
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Re: Subforums for MMV and CMV ?

Postby Pwolf » Fri Mar 25, 2011 4:55 pm

EvaFan wrote:Why not share and discuss with the community you already are with and like?


Because this community is about AMVs. I don't go into a car community and demand that they make me a sub forum about boats. That doesn't make sense. Use the off topic forum, it's called off topic for a reason (well, it's called "General" but it's off topic).
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Re: Subforums for MMV and CMV ?

Postby Snowcrash » Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:29 am

Pwolf wrote:
EvaFan wrote:
Pwolf wrote:one of the rules for announcing a video is that it must be in the database. if we start allowing people to announce videos in the announcement thread that aren't allowed in the database (LAMV/CMVs) then we are going against the foundation and focus of the website. It seems like more people in the community would rather maintain the foundation the website was built on then change it, which means, not allowing people to announce LAMVs. That's what the off topic forum is for, use it.


When did it suddenly become ok for popular people to announce something not from the database then: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=104144 ? Is it ok to throw it in there as extra or something?


The original poster is still posting a video that's in the database vs only posting the one that's not. And it's not just "popular" people who do that.

I can recognize few of my videos are very borderline with the concept of AMV :lol: (I remember that my Android Love has its local link removed despite the fact of mixing anime sources and non anime source but it was more focused on "Renaissance").

Anyway I can understand that admins don't choose to do a subforum about LAMV. It was more a suggestion than anything. If we can still present our non-anime video in off topic, that's ok (even if we don't have the same visibility than the subforum AMV announcement :p ).

Pwolf wrote:
EvaFan wrote:Why not share and discuss with the community you already are with and like?


Because this community is about AMVs. I don't go into a car community and demand that they make me a sub forum about boats. That doesn't make sense. Use the off topic forum, it's called off topic for a reason (well, it's called "General" but it's off topic).

Actually I think LAMV and AMV are quite close. The material is certainly different but the finality is the same: it's all about editing. And it's sometimes refreshing to see some different kind of things.

But don't worry, if I want to see other kind of stuff, I am going onto Creaspace.ru ;)
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Re: Subforums for MMV and CMV ?

Postby Pwolf » Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:03 pm

Snowcrash wrote:Actually I think LAMV and AMV are quite close. The material is certainly different but the finality is the same: it's all about editing. And it's sometimes refreshing to see some different kind of things.


Yes, they are both about editing, but the end result is still different. I have no problem with someone going into the video/audio help sections looking for assistance with an LAMV/CMA. That part of the process is pretty universal but if you want to announce the video after it's been completed, use the off topic forum, that's what it's for.
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Re: Subforums for MMV and CMV ?

Postby Prodigi » Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:55 am

EvaFan wrote:
Pwolf wrote:one of the rules for announcing a video is that it must be in the database. if we start allowing people to announce videos in the announcement thread that aren't allowed in the database (LAMV/CMVs) then we are going against the foundation and focus of the website. It seems like more people in the community would rather maintain the foundation the website was built on then change it, which means, not allowing people to announce LAMVs. That's what the off topic forum is for, use it.

When did it suddenly become ok for popular people to announce something not from the database then: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=104144 ? Is it ok to throw it in there as extra or something?

Oh lawl. The 'popularity' bullshit comes out. I think you'll find I acted well within the rules. This is something I got confirmed by a site moderator (in this case Kalium) back in 2006 when I started to make a lot of Live Action videos, and before the Donator's Forum came back. I asked, and was advised, that it was okay to put a live action video into an announcement if you wanted, as long as the announcement contained a real new AMV along with it. But yeah. Popularity rules :roll: If you spent less time bitching and more time actually asking people things you may learn a thing or two.

EvaFan wrote:Well when all thats left is mainly forum regulars, and people average 0-10 posts unless your popular on the announcement forums do you think your ideology is working? You're clearly being high and mighty. There is nothing wrong with a democratic forum. If a poll proved that the community was more in favor of a LAMV/MMV thread (that is still related to editing) then why not give them what they want.
Nya-chan Production wrote:Btw, admins ARE governors of the Org - and they bear all the responsibility for it - from discontent users to massive exodus. I don't mean this to sound harsh, but it is a fact - most of the communities that work overly democratic-y tend to lose focus of the original theme and change into clutters of subforums of subforums of off-topic.

Thank god you're only a mod, I only hope kariudo and doki don't feel the same way. I have never ran into a forum that used polls and worked with the community instead of for/against them that strayed from what it was created for, the community. This kind of thinking is why this forum is practically dead. So what if the focus and theme is lightened up on, its still there. The a-m-v.org main page and all its features are still there. The only difference is the community has more ways to interact and discuss. Seriously, stop being the lock and start being the key.

Yes, the forum is 'practically dead' despite the fact that there are 160 topics that have been updated in the last 7 days, not even factoring in how many times each has been replied in. Not to mention the fact that it took 26 hours to get 96 editors to sign up to an online IC competition. But yeah. The community is practically dead.

Nya-chan is right. The Moderators and the Admin do have the say. They are the governors of the website. They are chosen for a reason. This isn't some free community to do whatever the hell you want. It was started as a way to catalogue any AMV that a creator wanted to share. We have various rules, and we have them for various reasons. Yes there are times when these rules are reviewed, but it has never been a case of majority rules. It's been about coming up with a valid reason and presenting a clear case.

I mean honestly, if you're that bothered by it then why don't you actually do something about it? Why aren't you the one going "well hot damn I'll make my own site called LAMV.org and it can act as a sister site to the org". People constantly bitch about how a-m-v.org should change and include LAMVs but nobody gets off their ass and actually does any work towards any of it at all. They just sit back and bitch and moan at the mods for not doing what they want. Honestly, I think if you did take a poll you'd find more people against it than for it. I edit LAMVs. I love LAMVs. But I would vote against it. Most of the people I know would vote against it. If it were that big of a deal to people to have it done I think it would have blown up more, but all that happens is the same 20-40 people pop up every few months, make the same arguments, run around in circles, and then do nothing about it but wait another couple of months before bitching about it again.

You want it? Get off your ass and do something about it. Stop complaining that this site won't cater for something it was never designed to.
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