Anime Naming Convention

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How should anime titles be represented on the site?

Japanese Only
1
1%
English Only
3
4%
Japanese Primary (English Secondary)
20
29%
English Primary (Japanese Secondary)
45
65%
 
Total votes : 69

Re: Anime Naming Convention

Postby pink haze » Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:45 pm

Nya-chan Production wrote:
pink haze wrote:I find this slightly daunting:
Place Promised In Our Early Days, The (Beyond The Clouds) [Kumo no Mukou, Yakusoku no Basho]

But I'll prolly vote for it anyway. =_=
English is the site's official language. Also, if you're trying to find an anime quickly in an alphabetical list (w/o using ctrl+F), it's more practical for the more common title to be listed first. I think the English is the more common on this site.

The Japanese is recently more used in anime naming, though (see viewforum.php?f=33 )

When it comes to making the database more search-friendly (be it using the search function or just eyeballing a list), it's not a question of which language names more anime. It's a question of which gets more searches overall. That includes duplicate searches for the same anime. You have to take into account that some anime are looked for more often than others.

Naturally, we're disregarding anime for which both languages use the same title, be it Japanese or English (or French or gibberish). For those there is no nomenclature problem. Same goes for anime that are never released internationally.
Also, when it comes to using the search function, I'm trying to ignore anime where the common keywords are the same in both languages (ex: Bishoujo Senshi Sailor Moon).

That said, which language gets more searches? I'm leaning towards English for now.
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Re: Anime Naming Convention

Postby Nya-chan Production » Wed Jul 07, 2010 1:05 pm

pink haze wrote:
Nya-chan Production wrote:
pink haze wrote:I find this slightly daunting:
Place Promised In Our Early Days, The (Beyond The Clouds) [Kumo no Mukou, Yakusoku no Basho]

But I'll prolly vote for it anyway. =_=
English is the site's official language. Also, if you're trying to find an anime quickly in an alphabetical list (w/o using ctrl+F), it's more practical for the more common title to be listed first. I think the English is the more common on this site.

The Japanese is recently more used in anime naming, though (see viewforum.php?f=33 )

When it comes to making the database more search-friendly (be it using the search function or just eyeballing a list), it's not a question of which language names more anime. It's a question of which gets more searches overall. That includes duplicate searches for the same anime. You have to take into account that some anime are looked for more often than others.

Naturally, we're disregarding anime for which both languages use the same title, be it Japanese or English (or French or gibberish). For those there is no nomenclature problem. Same goes for anime that are never released internationally.
Also, when it comes to using the search function, I'm trying to ignore anime where the common keywords are the same in both languages (ex: Bishoujo Senshi Sailor Moon).

That said, which language gets more searches? I'm leaning towards English for now.


Your opinion is pretty biased - it is well known that the list IS English, so why should people look for Japanese names? If it was well-known it was Japanese, people would mostly search for Japanese names. Only if it supported both equally, you could have a look at the statistics and say "This gets more searches".
I can see your point, though, that's why I say I'd be for both, switchable, if it is possible.

Btw: Kumo no Mukou, Yakusoku no Bashou]
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Re: Anime Naming Convention

Postby mirkosp » Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:10 pm

I assume you guys are just ignoring that the current aliasing system takes into account the aliasing when displaying search results and that the only reason for this discussion is for the name displayed in the entries/VIDIDs, correct? Search is in no way the issue here, imho, since it'd work fine regardless.
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Re: Anime Naming Convention

Postby pink haze » Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:56 pm

mirkosp wrote:Search is in no way the issue here, imho, since it'd work fine regardless.
Ah, so even if "English Only" were chosen, running a search for "Kumo no Mukou" would work regardless? That would be a convenient improvement.
(Correct me if I'm misunderstanding you; I'm not sure if we're talking about the same things.)

Anyway, search is still an issue when you're using your eyes, not the search function (ex: when you're looking at a various anime list); I've been discussing both.

Nya-chan Production wrote:Your opinion is pretty biased - it is well known that the list IS English, so why should people look for Japanese names? If it was well-known it was Japanese, people would mostly search for Japanese names. Only if it supported both equally, you could have a look at the statistics and say "This gets more searches".
I can see your point, though, that's why I say I'd be for both, switchable, if it is possible.

Btw: Kumo no Mukou, Yakusoku no Bashou]
Don't worry, I'm taking that into account. Of course it's necessary to look at what queries people make, or would make, under ideal conditions (i.e. their choice isn't affected by the site's current system). It's better to consider, not this site's search statistics (which I certainly don't have access to, and Mirko points out is irrelevant anyway), but whether popular anime titles (which people are likely to be looking for) usually go by their Japanese or English names in general use by populations similar to this site's. Still leaning towards English. I don't plan on voting until I'm more convinced one way or the other.

And I agree, I'd prefer switchable if possible, though in that case I'd rather only one language be shown at a time, to save space.

Because I still find these daunting:
Record of Lodoss War: Chronicles of the Heroic Knight (TV) [Lodoss Tou Senki: Eiyuu Kishi Den]
Lodoss Tou Senki: Eiyuu Kishi Den [Record of Lodoss War: Chronicles of the Heroic Knight (TV)]

A character limit would be nice. << I work for a publishing company; creating giant navigable lists of names is what we do. Character limits preserve space-efficiency and legibility.
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Re: Anime Naming Convention

Postby Nya-chan Production » Wed Jul 07, 2010 6:10 pm

The alias search works even now, so that's not really an improvement ;x

And a character limit is kinda useless when any entry has to be approved by mods, who won't approve unnecessarily long entries ^^
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Re: Anime Naming Convention

Postby pink haze » Wed Jul 07, 2010 6:44 pm

Nya-chan Production wrote:The alias search works even now, so that's not really an improvement ;x
Aw, I couldn't get the "Kumo no Mukou" search to work for the life of me (or just "Kumo" for that matter, or any part of the rest of the name), but I only tried the Super Search.

Nya-chan Production wrote:And a character limit is kinda useless when any entry has to be approved by mods, who won't approve unnecessarily long entries ^^
Same difference, long as the Mods care about length.


On a different note, here's some info for anyone who's interested. I did a quick run through the top anime & most used anime lists. Most of the names were the same in Japanese & English. These are the ones I found that are different; some are still pretty similar. (Titles googled, someone who's familiar w/ both languages could do a better job, feel free to correct.)

Hagane no Renkinjutsushi [Fullmetal Alchemist]
Shin Seiki Evangelion [Neon Genesis Evangelion]
Bishoujo Senshi Sailor Moon [Sailor Moon]
Furuba [Fruits Basket]
Shin Kidou Senki Gundam W [Mobile Suit Gundam Wing]
Tenku no Escaflowne [Vision of Escaflowne, The]
Mononoke Hime [Princess Mononoke]
Seihou Bukyou Outlaw Star [Outlaw Star]
Rurouni Kenshin: Tsuiokuhen [Samurai X: Trust and Betrayal]
Ranma 1/2 Nettouhen [Ranma 1/2]
Yu-Gi-Oh! Duel Monsters [Yu-Gi-Oh!]
Furi Kuri [FLCL (Fooly Cooly)]
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Re: Anime Naming Convention

Postby mirkosp » Wed Jul 07, 2010 6:51 pm

pink haze wrote:
mirkosp wrote:Search is in no way the issue here, imho, since it'd work fine regardless.
Ah, so even if "English Only" were chosen, running a search for "Kumo no Mukou" would work regardless? That would be a convenient improvement.
(Correct me if I'm misunderstanding you; I'm not sure if we're talking about the same things.)


That's what should already happen. The point is that we have been getting drama over when to use the English name and when the Japanese name due to dubious licenses status and whatnot. I'd personally prefer sticking with the Japanese name, since that's very likely always available for non-grey-area sources, and if even if you search the English name you still get the result.
But apparently, some of the American users still want the English names to be used, so the parenthesys option would be a viable way to make everybody happy: those that want a reliable and not confusing catalogue and those that want English name despite doubtful official translation or licensing status.

Yes I know, this comes off very biased towards the Japanese option. That's because I analized pros and cons of the two points and it was obvious that the title in the original language makes more sense than the american title.
This is what I basically what I was able to get out of it:
  • Original language (mainly Japanese)
    • Pros:
      • We have a sure title right off the bat
      • Title will always remain the same
      • Can be considered a fair neutral midground for a worldwide userbase since it's the original title
    • Cons:
      • Not everybody knows the original title of some (mainly older) animes
      • Some users might lament the way some titles were romanized
  • American licensed title (mainly English)
    • Pros:
      • American users might recognize the title more easily
      • English is the language used on the site and forum
    • Cons:
      • Some shows are in licensing limbo so we don't know if we should adopt the Japanese or English title
      • Some animes don't have a clear, unique, official title
      • Licensing rights wear off, so we'd have to revert to Japanese titles when this happens, but we have no way to consistently keep track of licensing status of everything
      • Some users might lament the usage of unofficial English titles beforehand
      • International users might not be able to recognize the English title of licenses

The recognizing title issues on both sides can be solved by googling the title ─ or possibly looking it up on AniDB if we do stick with that.
We can also keep more or less ignoring the users that lament the usage of English titles over Japanese ones in some specific cases, as we could ignore the ones that would lament romanization.
So we're left with American users wanting the catalogue to be American users oriented on a worldwide website. So what if the Russians or French take over the site? Should we change the titles to Russian or French because that's the language of the majority of the active users? Should we quit using English on the site since that's not what most of the people speak as first language anymore? To me the key word for the org is neutrality. English isn't used on this site because that's the language used in America, but because it's used for international communication and because it would safely put people from most countries at ease with a language that, even if not perfectly known, can be somewhat safely winged more easily than others. But for a matter as title listing, using the English title wouldn't be a neutral worldwide choice to put everybody at ease, but rather a way to make some of the American users at ease at the expense of the rest of the world, imho.

So well, since long titles would be daunting, using a single language would be better, you say. But using both would make both sides happy, even if perhaps not pretty-looking. And since I also really like the whole neutrality reasoning my final answer was Japanese (English) exactly for these motivations. I'm sorry if I'm making it sound so SRSBSNS, but to me it's an important matter and that is why it's being discussed.
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Re: Anime Naming Convention

Postby Nya-chan Production » Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:03 pm

I agree with the post above 50%.

BUT I'LL GET 4 MORE PEOPLE WHO WILL COMPENSATE BY 10% AND WITH OUR COURAGE WE'LL REACH 100%!
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Re: Anime Naming Convention

Postby Athena » Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:20 pm

漢字とカナは一番、ロマ字は二番お願いします。

Kanji and kana primary, roman letters secondary, please.
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Re: Anime Naming Convention

Postby Nya-chan Production » Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:31 pm

I think Kio is pretty cool guy eh writes kana and doesnt afraid of anything!
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Re: Anime Naming Convention

Postby Vlad G Pohnert » Thu Jul 08, 2010 6:47 pm

One important point to consider here is that as pointed out already, we do have limitations as to what we can do. A Major re-write and/or overhaul of the entire naming DB structure is most likely not something we would be implementing too soon as that requires a lot of programming time and resources. Currently the system only allows for one name and that is what we have to work with in the short to most likely Future.

The other aspect we need to be careful is how long the titles get if we go with a combination for English and Japanese the other consideration if we do use Japanese is the use or Roman or Kanji and kana.. Practically this site does cater to a lot of people who know English or understand it so it does not really make a lot of sense to have the Name in Kanji/Kana for those select few who can read Japanese

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Re: Anime Naming Convention

Postby Nya-chan Production » Thu Jul 08, 2010 6:50 pm

Vlad G Pohnert wrote:Currently the system only allows for one name and that is what we have to work with in the short to most likely Future.

Well, damn |:
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Re: Anime Naming Convention

Postby Kitsuner » Thu Jul 08, 2010 7:12 pm

I want to go to the Anime Naming Convention! Where is it being held this year?
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Re: Anime Naming Convention

Postby Athena » Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:14 pm

One name only, Dad? Romaji then, I have to agree with kipper.
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Re: Anime Naming Convention

Postby Qyot27 » Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:32 am

Shame on me for only noticing this now.

Japanese (English), from the options on the poll

I guess my concern is some of those translated titles coming seemingly out of left field if they *aren't* the official licensed ones, as that's part of what sparked all this to begin with. Reasonable translations like 'A Certain...' for the Toaru properties are one thing, because they're still recognizable and widely used among fans. But the mess over Toradora! wasn't. In that case, even most English-speaking users knew it by the original name (and it did eventually get licensed under the said original title, too). Without some sort of translation sanity, Yami to Bōshi to Hon no Tabibito could just as well be entered in as "Look at my big effing hat", which some users jokingly referred to it by.

Maybe as a forum-centric feature, actually run proposed English translations for unlicensed properties past a user filter? That way the community-desired translation is used. Say, keep it open for voting for a week or two, to allow for consensus to settle. Usually it seems the titles people decide to accept solidifies within a week or two of the show airing, and the entry requests may not even come in until a month after a show airs sometimes, giving the titles up to a month and a half for people to know how they want to translate them.

With the entries, how feasible is it to show a title on mouseover? That would relieve trying to find space for both titles on the page. Have one main entry as the default with the other title shown on mouseover. Or if mouseover isn't possible, in cases where the titles are the same, just omit one from being displayed.

All that considered, my suggestion would be something like
Japanese (Official English, Community consensus 'English'* if official doesn't exist)

*in quotes because sometimes the title is like Toradora! or Magikano, directly acceptable as an English title even if it's not technically an English word or phrase. Often this is because of the usage of hiragana or katakana for the title rather than kanji (the same would also generally hold true for Japanese title entries that use furigana to signal that things aren't supposed to be pronounced like they're spelled, such as furigana-specified Index and Railgun vs. literal Kinsho Mokuroku and Choudenjibou in the aforementioned Toaru titles).

If having English first is deemed the priority, I'd also be okay with
Official English (Japanese)
falling back to
Japanese (Community consensus)

This is partly because the unofficial titles can always change, and for that matter, the community can often be divided over which title to use. I hate to point out the 800-pound gorilla, but some of the perception for unofficial titles is driven by what the fansub groups use, and they generally don't always agree on things either, which makes Japanese priority better for unlicensed material, IMO.
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