Some Videos No Longer Available [Follow-up]

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Postby MCWagner » Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:55 pm

Knowname wrote:I would think that a boycot DONE RIGHT can be effective. What I mean is, in this situation, boycot the record labels, not the bands.


Any kind of effective boycott would require that the label understand the motivation behind the boycott.

To make the label understand the boycott, we'd have to draw their attention to AMVs.

If we draw their attention to AMVs they'd be legally required to hit us for EVERY OTHER BAND on their label by the exact same logic that got these three bands pulled.

If it was a big, public, loud boycott, all the other labels would have their attention drawn too. Petition your senator and it'll be ignored along with the other dozen fringe-group demands they get every day.

Look, everyone's acting like this has never happened before. Although it's the first time it's hit the .org, there've been at least two other cease and desist orders issued by record companies (the one that springs to mind was Prince's label). The result? The vids were pulled off the internet. Everyone yammered about how this was gonna be the end of the hobby. Everyone got really quiet. Then nothing happened.

The advantage of our hobby is that we're small, rather unassuming, and out of the public eye. I know it goes against most of y'all's nature, but really the best response to this is for us to quiet down, lest our own actions snowball into causing exactly what we're trying to prevent. Making AMVs is legal. Distributing them widely is not. Once the squall has passed, continue with business as ususal (while adhering to the C&D order). Phade's response here was totally appropriate.

Really. I don't want this snowballing into C&D orders sent to convention contests. *looks around nervously*
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Postby rubyeye » Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:55 pm

Phade,

I really appreciate all that you do and put up with when things like this come up. However, I would like to suggest that when big issues like this creep up and affects all of us (that is the AMV community), it would be wise to post the news of this material on the main page of the site. The "news" on there rarely updates except to mention some new feature of the site. Just make a brief summary/headline and create a link to the forum thread it relates to.

I only suggest this because I'm sure there are many who don't visit the Site Announcement forum that often (including myself). I just think it would be helpful to inform everyone when news of this magnitude suddenly arise.


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Postby Knowname » Thu Nov 17, 2005 9:03 pm

rubyeye wrote:Phade,

I really appreciate all that you do and put up with when things like this come up. However, I would like to suggest that when big issues like this creep up and affects all of us (that is the AMV community), it would be wise to post the news of this material on the main page of the site. The "news" on there rarely updates except to mention some new feature of the site. Just make a brief summary/headline and create a link to the forum thread it relates to.

I only suggest this because I'm sure there are many who don't visit the Site Announcement forum that often (including myself). I just think it would be helpful to inform everyone when news of this magnitude suddenly arise.


~ Dann


I beleive the annoncement is on the member page as it mostly only concerns members (who upload/ download locally) anyway.

And, I don't think others here are understanding. The passive aggressive approach there IS no voice... anyway that's how I see it. Anyway I'm just gonna do just what I had been doing before ^.^
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Postby x_rex30 » Thu Nov 17, 2005 9:12 pm

rubyeye wrote:Phade,

I really appreciate all that you do and put up with when things like this come up. However, I would like to suggest that when big issues like this creep up and affects all of us (that is the AMV community), it would be wise to post the news of this material on the main page of the site.
I don't think that is a wise idea at all.. well if you give the whole story at the main page of the site.. some asshole visiting the site could easily run into that and think it would be funny trying to contact the bands for the same reason.. I know plenty of people who would do that just to piss people off. I just personally don't think it's a good idea..
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Postby valeyard » Thu Nov 17, 2005 9:18 pm

Inuyasha the 3rd wrote:Okay, this makes sense now. But however, I am still mad at the person who wrote that letter to the band asking if the video was made by them, that was just plain DUMB. :x

I just hope this legal BS stops. If more of this crap keeps happening, then im just going to be like "F*ck this, im done!". But maybe im just overeacting. :roll:

But yeah, Im glad those companies didnt force phade to shut this whole site down. If it wasnt for this site, I wouldnt have the motivation to even make an AMV. :) So, even through all of this, I still support phade. I really should donate sometime when I get a job.. :)


I'm not angry at the person who emailed asking the band. I don't know how to diplomatically put this, but it was probably some naive kid, who had no clue the trouble he would be causing.

Hell, be honest about it; we were all naive once. We have done all things that we later regretted simply because we were naive at the time. Live, learn and forgive.

I always wondered about the legality of this hobby, but I always figured as sue happy as the music companies were, if they had a problem with this site or hobby, they would have dropped the hammer by now.

Apparently, that is not the case. Well, like I said before, I would not expect the three bands aforementioned to be the last to request their music removed.

I think it's a shame. It's a fun hobby, and I don't think it causes the bands any harm. However, I do see the band's point of view. They have their rights, and it is the job of their copyright lawyers to protect their clients.
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Postby rubyeye » Thu Nov 17, 2005 10:46 pm

x_rex30 wrote:
rubyeye wrote:Phade,

I really appreciate all that you do and put up with when things like this come up. However, I would like to suggest that when big issues like this creep up and affects all of us (that is the AMV community), it would be wise to post the news of this material on the main page of the site.

I don't think that is a wise idea at all.. well if you give the whole story at the main page of the site.. some asshole visiting the site could easily run into that and think it would be funny trying to contact the bands for the same reason.. I know plenty of people who would do that just to piss people off. I just personally don't think it's a good idea..


Sounds reasonable .... anyway, just a passing thought . :roll:
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Postby dj_ultima_the_great » Thu Nov 17, 2005 11:43 pm

I've been trying to stay out of this, since I don't know much about copywrite laws. However, there was one point I'd like to address.

I am a fan of Evanescence. Just because I happen to like that one band out of many, many others, does not mean I have a "crappy" taste in music. I am not going to stop buying their CDs just because of this incident. For those of you who had already chosen not to purchase the albums of the three bands, that is fine. Anyone can respect that. But do not put some cheap label like "boycotting" on it. You never bought that music in the first place; why should you suddenly make a big deal of that action now? What you are doing is not some grand crusade. It is merely your normal listening habit - just as my purchasing of the album is a normal listening habit.

The moral of the story: quit trying to give importance to an action you would have performed anyway, current circumstances or not.

That is all I have to say, and that is all I will say. Argue if you like, but my mind cannot be changed. I doubt I can change your mind either, and that is why I will not argue past this point. However, I believe it is important to have both sides of the story. So, there was my side.


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Postby BasharOfTheAges » Fri Nov 18, 2005 12:07 am

Knowname wrote:
BasharOfTheAges wrote: I pose the (rhetorical?) question; "Is it not within proper business procedures for any group such as wind-up records to inform their associates of current legal matters that they have undertaken that they found to be important enough to warrent a Cease and Desist order?"


uh.. no, haven't you ever watched a tv drama or sitcom?? The money grubbing lawyer has NO such responcibility to stop the artists from creating money making propertys. This is Democracy.


Do you have any idea what i was talking about here?

I was saying that the record label obviously cared enough to have their lawyer get involved, so why wouldn't they care enough to send a memo to their parent companies to "inform" them of something they obviously thought to be important enough to warent the Cease and Desist order? (I'm also implying that the parent group would then - by the logic Phade presented - be forced into taking the same actions simply because they were made aware of the org).
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Postby TehShere » Fri Nov 18, 2005 12:09 am

Anyone shocked by all this is a fool. It was only a matter of time until a band (or a few bands) found out. Not to sound like an ass, but nothing of value was really lost over this. A majority of the videos using the songs by those bands weren't really groundbreaking or even good. I'm just being blunt, sorry if it seems rude.

American copywrite laws are a big matter of debate at the moment, though you don't hear much about it. Regardless of the outcome, however, this will still be gray area-type illegal.

Anyway, kudos to you for keeping the site running with minimal losses.

As a side note, I wonder if any of those bands took the time to watch any of the videos here. Heh. Not that it would matter, the record label is the one that pretty much 'owns' them.
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Postby Kalium » Fri Nov 18, 2005 12:39 am

Thing is, copyrights are not trademarks. Copyrights can be selectivley enforced without risk of losing them, unlike trademarks. "Maintaining the enforceability" just means not accidentally putting the material into the public domain by making it an exhibit in a court case or something.

More likely it's corporate policy to go after anything brought to their attention.
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Postby JaddziaDax » Fri Nov 18, 2005 12:50 am

I have a question that wasnt answered in the first thread:

will the AMVs that once had local downloads get their ops freed up? cause as of now they cannot recieve opinions (or atleast last I checked)...

due to the "you must download the local video inorder to leave an opinion rule" I am sure that their opinions have been locked... I am sure that there is no "easy way" to do it, but I am curious to know if it can be done or if its even been thought of.

PS most of the Boycott stuff I am sure was first reaction... atleast it was for me.. o.0
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Postby nilyak86 » Fri Nov 18, 2005 1:01 am

First of all I want to sincerely thank Phade for all that he does to maintain this site and for representing this community in legal matters such as the one recently faced. I am very grateful.

Secondly, my step-dad is a lawyer so if there are any legal questions I can help clear up, I would be happy to talk things over with my step-dad and then post his take on the situation.
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Postby Vlad G Pohnert » Fri Nov 18, 2005 1:15 am

I for one would like to say this is a Hobby, a great hobby with a great community... I have met so many wonderful people and has so many friends from it that no one, not even the music industry will ever take that away no matter what they do.. And that's what's important.... So long as we love making AMVs and don't start down the road of political torment over it, it will remain being fun...

Lets not let this incident consume us all and take away our already limited time. I think our best weapon is in the strength of our community and passions for our collective hobby… if we let that go, then we’ve already lost everything….

It now almost December, so it's time to get to creative juices flowing once again so more new and awesome videos for next year... :wink:

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Postby Scintilla » Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:02 am

dj_ultima_the_great wrote:I am a fan of Evanescence. Just because I happen to like that one band out of many, many others, does not mean I have a "crappy" taste in music. I am not going to stop buying their CDs just because of this incident. For those of you who had already chosen not to purchase the albums of the three bands, that is fine. Anyone can respect that. But do not put some cheap label like "boycotting" on it. You never bought that music in the first place; why should you suddenly make a big deal of that action now? What you are doing is not some grand crusade. It is merely your normal listening habit - just as my purchasing of the album is a normal listening habit.

Okay, so what about the people who WERE buying their CDs before and now decided to stop?

TehShere wrote:As a side note, I wonder if any of those bands took the time to watch any of the videos here.

Amy Lee of Evanescence has seen and enjoyed at least one of the videos to her band's music here (I believe it was at A-Kon 2002 or 2003 before the band got big; check the video info).
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Postby Flint the Dwarf » Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:36 am

Scintilla wrote:Okay, so what about the people who WERE buying their CDs before and now decided to stop?

They need to get their priorities straight. :o
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