Evanescence, Seether and Creed videos no longer available

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Postby Animal4890 » Wed Nov 16, 2005 2:36 am

nice block Phade. I just hope a-m-v.org isn't blitzed again and that this is a freak occurance. viva la AMVs
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Postby Coderjoe » Wed Nov 16, 2005 2:41 am

SSJVegita0609 wrote:If anything, AMVs are like the radio and act as advertisement.


Except that radio stations pay a hefty licensing fee to be able to play the music they do.
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Postby Kalium » Wed Nov 16, 2005 2:43 am

Coderjoe wrote:
SSJVegita0609 wrote:If anything, AMVs are like the radio and act as advertisement.


Except that radio stations pay a hefty licensing fee to be able to play the music they do.

Only to composers, and that's a compulsory license. The record label gets no say in the matter.
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Postby Coderjoe » Wed Nov 16, 2005 2:46 am

Oh, also...

You DO NOT lose your copyright if you don't defend it. That is TRADEMARK that you lose if you don't defend it. If you create something, you own a copyright on your creation. Those rights cannot be revoked.

In the case of AMVs, the editor owns the copyright on the arrangement of clips, but they don't own the rights to the music or video source (except in the cases of original works). Thus, to distribute an AMV, you are supposed to need to obtain a license to both the music and anime. But, this would call attention to the AMV community, and be quite expensive.
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Postby Devolution » Wed Nov 16, 2005 2:57 am

OMG IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD O:

...not really, but i'm sure some people are going to react like that to this news.

i hate to be a doomsayer, but precedence has been set. worst case scenario, it'll only be a matter of time before other record labels take notice of us now. so i won't be surprised if, in the next year or so, we see the death of the Donut.

to be honest though, if the major record labels were to bring about the death of the donut and we could only make linkless database entries for our videos, i don't think i'd care :| i'd just go back to running my own crappy FTP server and peddling my videos to random people on IRC and AIM. it worked when i joined and it'll work when the donut is gone.

*shrugs*

i'm glad that things happened as smoothly as they did though. videos containing those three artists are now linkless/unlinkable, and no one had to deal with a lawsuit. s'all good :\
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Postby Infinity Squared » Wed Nov 16, 2005 3:20 am

Dodged a bullet have we? Well, I suppose it was more of a flesh wound... it's still damage...

I want to be optimistic, so I will... things will be alright children...
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Postby DaCoolGohan » Wed Nov 16, 2005 3:26 am

Quick Question. Since this may have been Wind Up Records, are they going to ban any videos from their various albums, such as from the Daredevil Soundtrack? No big deal, but I know of a few good tracks that are exclusively on that soundtrack, namely my Samurai X video and some others.

I still find this very sad; that now this once thought to be accepted form of expression is coming under attack. This is probably one of the first steps toward banning all AMVs, hopefully not, but if the trends with record companies are any suggestion, they all end up making it completely illegal to do something.

The most surprising part, to me, is that this is the first big attack on the AMV community. I'm not sure if it came about because of the new laws passed, or if the Label or Artist is pushing for it.

At least for now no one has been sued or anything of that nature Hopefully we will get all these types of messages before it escalates.
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Postby Beowulf » Wed Nov 16, 2005 3:35 am

While this is a step in a dangerous direction, no one is talking about the REAL issue of this thread:

Evenescence, Creed, and Seether were banned! HORRAY! Down with shitty music! You'll never have to watch an AMV with either of them again!
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Postby DaCoolGohan » Wed Nov 16, 2005 3:42 am

Beowulf wrote:While this is a step in a dangerous direction, no one is talking about the REAL issue of this thread:

Evenescence, Creed, and Seether were banned! HORRAY! Down with shitty music! You'll never have to watch an AMV with either of them again!


Well that fact aside, getting rid of all those Bring Me To Life videos, Take Me Higher and Fine Again videos. This, unless no other artists get pissed about free promotion, is a step in the bad direction. All AMVs gone or individuals will be sued for it.
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My two cents (but not paid to any copyright infringement)

Postby MisterFurious » Wed Nov 16, 2005 3:52 am

Yes, I know I have never posted on the forums here, despite being a member for many years, but this is a rather important landmark in the history of AMV's, and certainly in the history of the org.

First of all, I think every member of this org, be it creator or fan, owes a HUGE debt of gratitude to Phade, not only for having the courage to deal with a situation where he could have been legally eaten alive, but for representing all of our interests in the best possible way, and minimizing what could have been catastrophic damage to the org.

One of the most important things Phade did was demonstrate good faith. Not only did he immediately agree to remove all links to videos using songs by the three bands in question, but he also included listings that misspelled those bands' names. As a representative of the AMV community, Phade has shown that when confronted with lawyers, we're not going to bitch or threaten boycotts. We're going to do the right thing, not just because we have to legally, but because it sets a positive example, so lawyers will be much less likely in the future to bring out the big guns early on, like the way the RIAA randomly sued people for downloading music.

Let's be clear here. Every video creator knew this day would come eventually. Even though none of us make any money from making AMV's, what we do is still illegal, and any creator who thinks otherwise is deluding him or herself. Rozard presented the possibility that AMV's are covered by fair use. If he's referring to the "adaptation" clause of the fair use act, that only would only cover the video portion, since we "adapt" the anime to "fit" the song. However, the song is not modified enough to meet the definition of adaptation, so we are still using music illegally. It's very telling that a record company filed the cease and desist, not any anime copyright holders. Be that as it may, do any of us have the resources to fight the army of legal eagles these record companies can afford?

Honestly, have any of us been kidding ourselves into thinking that AMV's are part of some vast underground so secret that no one in the entertainment industry is aware of its existence? Anime conventions have had music video contests for years, and as the number of conventions and attendees has grown, the less likely it has become that the industry is blissfully unaware of what we've been doing. Who sponsors the attendance of J-Pop artists at conventions? I've seen DreamWorks and Disney booths at some conventions. Do these industry reps spend their down time in their suites eating shrimp cocktail from room service? Of course not. They're there to see what the anime fan likes, and they cannot possibly be blind to the crowds that form around AMV screenings. With this kind of penetration into what is no longer a "niche" market, it's pretty obvious that the industry is well aware of our actions. I don't think it's a coincidence that Disney started using Right Said Fred's "Don't Talk Just Kiss" in promos for "Dharma and Greg" mere months after Anna Exter won AX 1997 for her video using the same song.

It is important to note that these record company lawyers only acted because someone believed that the band was somehow responsible for the videos posted here. Not being a lawyer, I am not sure how this misconception classifies as an actionable violation of copyright. It may have something to do with the record companies also owning the rights to the music videos made to the songs they own. When someone asks them if the videos on the org were made by the band, this establishes the possibility that any videos on the org might be misconstrued as having originated from the record company. If the company does nothing to stop the dissemination of videos that could be mistaken for legitimate videos, then by their inaction they "legitimize" these videos. It's just a theory, but whatever the case, I'm certain that these lawyers only acted because they somehow had to protect their copyright. They're not after money. What money could we give them, anyway? We've already spent it on anime.

It still escapes me how anyone could be naive enough to think that any videos distributed here have any affiliation to the artists that created the music. I guess it just goes to show you why there are ridiculous disclaimers on almost every commercial you see (like "Professional driver on closed course - do not attempt"). Looks like Phade may have to add one to the org:

"Unless otherwise indicated, music videos distributed on a-m-v.org have no affiliation whatsoever with the artists responsible for the music, the creators of the anime, or any other entity to that extent."

Or something like that.....

Once again, great job, Phade! Whether you realize it or not, you covered our posteriors very well.
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Re: My two cents (but not paid to any copyright infringement

Postby DaCoolGohan » Wed Nov 16, 2005 4:20 am

MisterFurious wrote:It still escapes me how anyone could be naive enough to think that any videos distributed here have any affiliation to the artists that created the music. I guess it just goes to show you why there are ridiculous disclaimers on almost every commercial you see (like "Professional driver on closed course - do not attempt"). Looks like Phade may have to add one to the org:

"Unless otherwise indicated, music videos distributed on a-m-v.org have no affiliation whatsoever with the artists responsible for the music, the creators of the anime, or any other entity to that extent."

Or something like that.....

Once again, great job, Phade! Whether you realize it or not, you covered our posteriors very well.


This is probably the case, and could be the best way to solve any of these problems in the future. There is no doubt in my mind that Phade is the only reason this site has lasted so long, and has kept so many different editors for being sued for one thing or the other, or even having to just deal with record companies' lawyers. If it wasn't for Phade caring so much for the well being of the community he created, he could have left us to our own devices long ago, when he was turning over reigns mainly to others, and then when this had happened we would have been completely screwed. In fact he cares so much for this community, which shows no gratitude, that he fights to keep the site alive, when he could have just said screw it all and closed it. It’s the same theme as with a lot of good leaders of any kind of thing. Even if the greatest portion of people don't care about their endeavors, they will fight to have as minimal damage done to what they created. I think a lot of people get away from the fact that without Phade this place would never exist, and hell, more than half the people here would have never made or even seen an AMV, goes for me too.

At least we still have Phade, and maybe this little thing will remind us how great the guy, who made everything possible, actually is. He doesn't even want to be praised for what he has just done, to save our asses and unless I'm way off track, He would probably do it again. At least he is still behind the community.
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Postby Scintilla » Wed Nov 16, 2005 4:59 am

The sad thing is that I read the first post and felt pretty neutral about it until I suddenly realized "OH DAMMIT I HAVE AN EVANESCENCE VIDEO, DON'T I" (and it's possibly the best video I've ever made, IMNSHO).

Rozard wrote:Something I'd like to say is that, to the extent of my knowledge, the act of making AMVs is still covered by fair use. It's the distrobution of AMVs which pushes them into illegality.

I thought the circumvention of CSS for to rip DVDs was illegal?

... I really don't have anything to say, except thanks to Phade for handling the situation (after reading the rest of the thread, I do feel it's major sigh-of-relief time) and that this won't stop me from continuing to offer that video on my own website.
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Postby Scintilla » Wed Nov 16, 2005 5:51 am

Oh, I do have one suggestion: it's confusing to look at my profile and see Direct and Local links still listed for that one video, but then to go to the actual video's info page and see that the videos are not in fact available. I suspect that it would show up the same way on searches.

Could such videos possibly have their links statuses (stati?) changed to show up as "NO" in places such as profiles and search results?
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Postby Scintilla » Wed Nov 16, 2005 5:58 am

Ack, didn't think of this until now. Sorry for the triple post.

I guess this kind of relates to my last question: assuming an affected video was previously available on local, will people now be able to leave opinions on it without having previously gotten it locally (because if they didn't get it from local then, they're certainly not getting it from local now, but the opinion blocker may still prevent them because the local link does exist even if it isn't available)?
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Postby bum » Wed Nov 16, 2005 6:18 am

Phade, would you ever consider turning this into an anonymouse one through programs such as freenet or (preferably) i2p?

nynex4 wrote:Well, I am taking my recently purchaced Seether album back to the store, and I was considering buying Evanescense, but It seems I have changed my mind.


Why? Do you refuse to support an artist just because a record label decided to protect there copyright in a way which members of this site see as wrong?
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