Top 10% List "Score" Modified

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Postby Phade » Wed May 05, 2004 2:10 pm

Hey,

mckeed wrote:Well, for one, not everyone puts their videos up on local. So that thorws your star scale out the window for people who don't put up their videos for local. Not everyone on the current top 10% has their video's up for local download. Most of them do, but not all. I even found one that isn't availiable for download at all.

But they were most likely downloadable at some point. Are you saying that a new video that is not downloadable should easily get onto the list?

mckeed wrote:Using a method to identify videos that automatically throws videos out cause they aren't local isn't a very fair system.

Nearly 40% of the videos listed in the catalog are locally downloadable. Of the video entries that are not, most of them are bogus entries. The rest of them are old entries of creators who don't come around anymore or just haven't bothered to put them up yet (usually due to "it was encoded in 1998 and a new encode would be much better, but I haven't done it yet")

mckeed wrote:Second, Weekly is just weekly and also relies on a local video. What if something slowly gains momentum over a period of months? The normal star scale isn't enough.

If a video gains momentum slowly, there must be a reson for it. Generally that reason is because the video is only mildy above average in quality. A video that is very good quality will have no trouble getting recognized because people will generally talk about that vid more. Unless the new video creator likes to spend lots of money on video hosting, they are very likely to put the video onto the local storage server so that people can get to it easily.

mckeed wrote:For one its not really detailed enough to give any real worth of a video. The same "stacking" that could take place with the old scale can and would take place here. Since now they can't stack to get on the top 10%, i would imagine people will start doing it here as well.

This is not likely to succeed. Videos that are rated high will get more downloads. As it gets more downloads, the average will reflect a more true value. This is the case in the 10% list as well as the star lists.

mckeed wrote:You could argue this gets rid of opinions that just try to give all 10's. That might be true.

This already happens. The top and bottom 10% scores are removed before calculating the average on the Top 10% list. For the star scale, people who give the same scores all the time (1's, 2's, 3's, 4's and 5's) are removed from the calculation.

mckeed wrote:Or people will just realize they just need more people to get on the top 15% list. So they go on the internet or local DBZ board and find 16-30 people willing to do this for them. Harder? Yes, but still doable.

Yes, much much harder now than it was before.

mckeed wrote:Thirdly, a system that relies on opinions encorages people to get opinions to someday make the number of opinions that gets them on the top 10%. The star method is an indirect method at best. If were going to change a system, why not address some issues for why some people liked the old system. It mainly was just exposure. I know my only video started very low on the list and as people saw it, i started getting more opinions on it, which caused it to slowly move up the list. So why not create a supplementary system to the top 10% that accomplishes just that. You argue that the star scales do this. I don't agree that it is the best way of acomplishing this.

So what is the best way to accomplish this?

mckeed wrote:I'm not saying the current system is bad. I think its very accurate. I just think there should be a better way of spotlighting videos. That is all.

If you can come up with something, show how to do it, and show that it is mathamatically sound, the system will be considereder.

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Postby mckeed » Wed May 05, 2004 2:13 pm

Yeah, that is true. I figured this was the place to do it though since the thread was about the change as people who would complain about it while reading it would post here and wouldn't think to actually go to site suggestions. I was just trying to think ahead. I personally don't feel wronged by the change, but I can imagine certain people would. I was just excited that my video had climbed up to a relatively high position which meant even more people would op it and then the change happened. I personally just want people to see my videos which is why i was arguing for a spotlight section. The old top 10% was just a vehicle for that in my eyes, but by looking at some of the stuff on it is was clear that there were some problems with it so I didn't give it TOO much stock. The new list is excelent in terms of content and have been routinely downloading videos to add to my collection. Some I completely forgot about. Especially since now can track what i got if i use the local downloads.
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Postby dwchang » Wed May 05, 2004 2:28 pm

mckeed wrote:I was just excited that my video had climbed up to a relatively high position which meant even more people would op it and then the change happened. I personally just want people to see my videos which is why i was arguing for a spotlight section.


I can understand that since that's how probably most of us feel. The higher on the list generally equates to more downloads and exposure. This is why I agree with you in perhaps having a section, but my contention is that this isn't the forum for that and if as Phade says, if you can come up with a mathematically sound way to do this, I'm 100% down with it. It's not like I don't like watching new vids ;).

mckeed wrote:The old top 10% was just a vehicle for that in my eyes, but by looking at some of the stuff on it is was clear that there were some problems with it so I didn't give it TOO much stock. The new list is excelent in terms of content...


Exactly.

It may be more difficult to make the list and you have to "climb," (which I like since I can put faith in the results) but ultimately the list itself is very sound and I challenge anyone to disagree that the top 20 vids AREN'T top videos on the site. Sure they may not be your favorites, but as godix said, you can at least realize why they're there. And with ~100 people agreeing well...that's pretty sound imo :).

I personally put very little faith in the list in the past and I imagine that probably contributed to lack of enthusiasm in watching vids lately. Now I can be fairly confident with vids on that list and with Phade's additions to the Super Search, perhaps I'll find some gems I missed out on.

All in all, Phade has been a coding monster lately and we're reaping the benefits. Thanks Phade!
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Postby mckeed » Wed May 05, 2004 2:33 pm

Phade wrote:Hey,
mckeed wrote:Second, Weekly is just weekly and also relies on a local video. What if something slowly gains momentum over a period of months? The normal star scale isn't enough.

If a video gains momentum slowly, there must be a reson for it. Generally that reason is because the video is only mildy above average in quality. A video that is very good quality will have no trouble getting recognized because people will generally talk about that vid more.

I don't quite agree with this statement. Some people don't pimp their videos alot or it only showed at one con or something. It took over a year for one of my videos to make the old 10%. Once it got there there were more validating reviews and I got many more oppinions on it. I'm sure there are many creators who probally have similar stories.

mckeed wrote:You could argue this gets rid of opinions that just try to give all 10's. That might be true.

This already happens. The top and bottom 10% scores are removed before calculating the average on the Top 10% list. For the star scale, people who give the same scores all the time (1's, 2's, 3's, 4's and 5's) are removed from the calculation.[/quote]
Ok, I was playing devil's advocate to myself so this proves that using the old 10% system combined with an algorithm that would compare both lists and remove videos that are on the new 10% would be decently effective as far as a publicity vehicle. As the bogus opinions would be removed when calculating for the new top 10% anyway.

mckeed wrote:Thirdly, a system that relies on opinions encorages people to get opinions to someday make the number of opinions that gets them on the top 10%. The star method is an indirect method at best. If were going to change a system, why not address some issues for why some people liked the old system. It mainly was just exposure. I know my only video started very low on the list and as people saw it, i started getting more opinions on it, which caused it to slowly move up the list. So why not create a supplementary system to the top 10% that accomplishes just that. You argue that the star scales do this. I don't agree that it is the best way of acomplishing this.

So what is the best way to accomplish this?
[/quote]

In summary (Old 10% scale - videos on current top 10%) then take top 20 on that list. Maybe you could "retire videos" off the list that hadn't had an opinion in over 4 months or something. Or once it hits the "min votes" level it gets removed?

mckeed wrote:I'm not saying the current system is bad. I think its very accurate. I just think there should be a better way of spotlighting videos. That is all.

If you can come up with something, show how to do it, and show that it is mathamatically sound, the system will be considereder.
[/quote]
Math isn't my strong suit, and I don't know how to begin to program this. It seems like if the top 10% was good for so long, it might be fine for such a small list like this anyway since it required a decent amount of reviews to get on the list. Yeah, it could be stacked, but if people know that the list is just a exposure kind of thing. It might not be to bad.
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Postby mckeed » Wed May 05, 2004 2:35 pm

crap i screwed up the quoting....i'm sure you can figure it out though based on phade's previous post.
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Postby Phade » Wed May 05, 2004 2:36 pm

Hey,

Preview button, man, preview button... ;-)

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Postby mckeed » Wed May 05, 2004 2:55 pm

funny thing is i did use it. I only checked the first quote. I'm just a dumbass.

But anyway, I think the method i suggested might be pretty decent for the purpose it would serve. I don't know what information is stored in the database so i don't know. Maybe you can post it in the programmers forum. I could try to think of something if i knew what information I was looking at.
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Postby Rozard » Wed May 05, 2004 4:49 pm

I say we leave this site as a catalogue only, and to leave an opinion, you can e-mail the creator 8) People get too worked up over review scores and where their video ranks that it pits people against each other.
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Postby Corran » Wed May 05, 2004 5:10 pm

So what it comes down to is you have to put your videos on local download or win a few cons for them to get noticed. Personal hosting is just convienient for hosting multiple versions. :P

I'm just playing. I think he top ten is very nice now.
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Postby Zarxrax » Wed May 05, 2004 6:18 pm

Here's a new suggestion thats maybe totally unrelated to the discussion at hand, but still related in a way I suppose.
This suggestion would go for both the star scale and the opinions.
How about make it so that the ratings are scaled towards the average? What I mean is like, say someone has an average rating of 4.2 for the videos they have rated on the star scale. This type of person either only downloads good videos, or is very generous in giving high scores. What I would propose is that this person's "5" scores cary less weight than the "5"s of someone with an average of say, 2.95.
Similarly on the opinions, if someone averages giving 8's and 9's, make their high scores worth less than high scores from someone that averages 5s and 6s.

I suck at mathematics, so maybe this isn't a very good way of doing things. Just happened to pop into my head though.
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Postby AbsoluteDestiny » Wed May 05, 2004 6:22 pm

The way I see it, this method only really works for people who

a) leave a lot of opinions

and

b) review a variety of videos in terms of quality.


I can't seeing more than 5% of the reviewers on the org satisfying both those criteria.
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Postby Scintilla » Wed May 05, 2004 6:49 pm

Corran Productions wrote:So what it comes down to is you have to put your videos on local download or win a few cons for them to get noticed. Personal hosting is just convienient for hosting multiple versions. :P

It's odd, I guess... personally, the only reasons I host alternate versions of my videos are
1) for the people who can't play MPEG-4-based AVIs (and therefore would prefer MPEG-1s)
2) for the people who don't want to have to give stars, because I'm like that myself
3) for the people who can't DL local videos because of the waiting period

And because not all my videos fit on my college webspace anymore, I'm paying for it.
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Postby Corran » Wed May 05, 2004 8:06 pm

That is what I do too... well except for my Iron chef videos.
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Postby Otohiko » Wed May 05, 2004 8:08 pm

My star rating is about 4.40 :?

And yes, I download mostly good videos and give mostly positive ops. But that doesn't mean I'm not constructive, detailed, or useful for that matter.

I mean, come on. What's wrong if a person is too bloody optimistic about what other people make? Does that suddenly make me not credible in any way? :roll:
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Postby Beowulf » Wed May 05, 2004 8:24 pm

What I think the main thing people are upset over is exposure. If your video is on the top ten, you get more hits. Period. And if your in the first 20 slots on the top ten you get about 5 times the hits of everything below. And if your in the first 10 slots, you get about 20 times that amount. I was getting roughly 100 hits a day when I was in the top 20 spots on that list. Its absolutely astounding how many people download almost exclusively from it.

What the top ten effectively does (at least to active members) is catapult someone into instant fame (fame being a very relative term, especially in the context of this community). Fame = more downloads and social clout. Who doesn't want that?

I like the new system, as I feel it adds a breath of much needed legitimacy to the list. On the old system there was a lot of shit that absolutely did NOT deserve to be up there, and most of that is gone now. The classics are back up top where they deserve to be.

What I think is the best thing to come of this new system is that it encourages people to get their own websites and hosting and not just leech off the org. Now you actually have to have talent now to make it up on the top ten and unless your a forum junkie, no one is going to give a shit about your videos. Rightfully so I say :up:

One more point I think is worth mentioning to people concerned about the lack of exposure is that the org isn't the end-all-be-all of the AMV world. Half of the bandwidth that HypeO pulls comes exclusively from our website. I think it would be a shame for people to under-estimate the potential of the general internet. If your good, word of mouth will spread about you, and that is the best type of publicity.

I don't know if I'm alone on this, but I'm personally disgusted when I see people making oscar type adds for their upcomming videos or making "comming soon videos", or having quotes from people in the video's profile like its some kind of fucking stick of deoderant or something, or (the worst) putting trailers for your next video at the end of your current video. All this disgusting promotion is, I feel, a reaction from creators who just aren't that great and are trying desperately to get their word out.

This post did have some sort of central message but it got lost along the way. Oh well, get a website and don't leech off the org! :P
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