Res: All f*ed up....

[Knowname]

So I just got this new lcdtv. See I had decided earlier that, for my bedroom, I wanted to use an lcdtv for a monitor. Made sence to me, if mostly only for a space saveing measure as it, obviosly, lets me exclude from haveing a seperate monitor while still being able to hook up my console systems. Plus I don't game much on my pc anymore (got Phantasy Star Universe (JP) comeing in though ;p) so being stuck at a lower res than traditional monitors isn't much of a drawback.

Well anyway... I do have a problem. See, my first LCDTV broke (thanks Ileia!!) and I just got this new one to replace it. A different one and a whole lot more expensive than the old one. But... thing is, it's HDMI only.. so it's not really made for PCs I guess, so I doubt if any of the customizations will be as automatic due to the lack of drivers and such.

Well I boot it up at the res Newegg claims (1360x768) and it's VERY shimmery... so I look around, 1152x648 seems to work for me. Apparently that's 720p or some such... that cures the shimmering, but my problem is the TEXT STILL LOOKS LIKE ASS! Help me fix this please, before I get pissed and come up with an excuse to turn it into/ exchange it at Panasonic since Newegg doesn't take refunds on TVs .

anyway, here's what the text (and the overall screen) looks like,

almost like the res is too low, but if I rase it any more it shimmers (well, 1280x720 doesn't shimmer, but part of the top is cut off... 1280x768 shimmers)!

videos look AWESOME though. I can't put a finger on what ratio I'm at but one video at 720x408 fills the screen... I don't know, trying to think of the lcm of 720 and 1152 than 648 and 408 just makes my head hurt -_- if anybody can help me there as well I'd like to know ^.^

so, bottom line. An tips on optimiseing your screen res? Could all this be due to bad pixels? What I think bad pixels is if like you get a stuck color showing at some point in your screen. But I don't know... many times I think this screen (yes, even this internet browser) just looks... pixalated. Come to think of it, it kinda looks like surfing with my dreamcast. So it may be the TV was MADE to be a TV. but my other one had no problem with it. So I'm just sure there's something I can manually do to 'filter' this somehow or something...

[TaranT]

My friends and I have had the same problem. To the point where we just gave up on using LCD TVs as monitors. Which is easy to do if you want 1600x1200 or better.

You might find this helpful: http://www.buildyourown.org.uk/forums/t ... c_ID=16591

[Willen]

Since it is using HDMI, you can't adjust the phase, which usually can fix this. Panasonic, eh? I shall try something out later and report back.

Oh, and bad pixels are usually what people call pixels that are "stuck". i.e. always on (red, green, or blue) or off (black). Fairly rare in most LCDs today, and if you have one, hopefully its in the corner where you almost never notice it.

[Knowname]

Oh thank god people understood me -_-. anyway thanks for the link! I'll check it out! But again, I don't think there's anything wrong with the TV as AMVs even via this HDMI>DVI setup are OUTSTANDING! (I've yet to hook anything up yet... I just set it up last night!) Though I was hopeing I could push it off on stuck pixels or something and get it exchanged lol. but anyway. -sigh-. I may just end up getting my old tv out/ fixed.

Also I didn't know stuck pixels were rare nowadays?? Must be a myth (spread around by those nasty newegg complaint reviews. cuz you know many things don't get reviews simply because ppl don't review what they're satisfied with. they only speak up when they're unsatisfied *.* so it just seems ALOT bigger). Cuz I got 3 lcds now and I don't beleive I seen any stuck pixels.

[Willen]

Whew, that took longer than I expected.

At this point in time, I suspect that the model you have isn't specifically made for use with a computer. The Panasonics that I tested that only have a HDMI jack are designed for TV usage, and as such, overscan all the footage fed into it. http://scanline.ca/overscan/ So to get the Windows Desktop to show up without stuff getting cut off, you are probably adjusting for the overscan (i.e. scaling the desktop down and adding a "border"). The TV also does some scaling to get the image to fit to the LCDs native pixel resolution. As of this writing, all the current Panasonic LCD TVs have a native resolution of 1366 x 768, which means that everything that you feed into it has to be resized to fit the screen (yes, everything).

Testing: The PC I used for the testing could only allow me to choose a limited array of resolutions that came close. These are: 1152 x 648 (iirc), 1280 x 720 (HDTV 720p standard), 1280 x 768, 1360 x 768, and for kicks I also tried 1920 x 1080 (HDTV 1080i standard*). The TV ended up being the Panasonic TC-23LX60 since it was the easiest one to move to the PC I would test on.

First off, 1280 x 720. This res gave me the least trouble, but because of the set's overscan, I lost about half of the Windows Taskbar and a similar amount from the other edges of the screen. Picture looked good, text was not great, but readable. Using ClearType helped text display.

Now, to go back a bit for 1152 x 648. Got rid of the overscan, but now the screen is underscanned. This means that a black border surrounds the Windows Desktop. Unfortunately, as far as I know, this set cannot adjust the overscan (more on this later).

1280 x 768. The set didn't like this resolution. Like you experienced, the picture shimmers like the scanning frequency is all wrong.

1360 x 768. Same results as 1280 x 768, if not worse.

1920 x 1080. This resolution got down converted to 720p. By the TV set or by the TV telling the computer to go to 720p (1280 x 720), I don't know. but when I tried it, the OSD of the TV said 720p. Picture was a bit softer than 1280 x 720, probably because of the signal being interlaced (1080i) and/or the scaling done to fit the higher res onto a lower res screen. Other than that, same results as 1280 x 720 with the same overscan issue.

Now, just for my curiousity, I tried using a 23" Sony LCD TV (model KDL-23S2010). Essentially the same results as the Panasonic, but the Sony can do what I call "extra overscan". Using 1152 x 648 resolution, I can get rid of some or all the black border by adjusting a setting in the menu (Display Area adjustment). And when I used 1920 x 1080, it came up on the OSD as 1080i. But seeing as the native resolution of the Sony is also 1366 x 768, it obviously has to scale the picture like the Panasonic does. The Sony does have one thing going for it (which probably makes it more expensive, aside from the Sony name), it has a proper RGB PC monitor connection (VGA HD15). Using this connection eliminated all the issues with overscan (and underscan) and you get all the LCD computer monitor adjustments like phase/pitch and vertical/horizontal adjust. Unfortunately, VGA connections are analog, so technically, it is a poorer choice. But the Pros outweigh the Cons here.

So you may want to play with the Powerstrip utility to tweak the output resolution to fit the Desktop to the screen as close as possible, but considering that: 1 - your TV is scaling the picture at all times, and 2 - even 1280 x 720 is kinda low res for a 23" screen (not to mention a 26", 32" or larger screen), the image quality for text is about as good as you can get it (aside from enabling ClearType, which may soften the overall image http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ClearType ). That being said, since this set is a TV and they are made for displaying moving images, movies, videos, and AMVs should look great.

*Some people may wonder, "Why isn't 1920 x 1080 on a LCD monitor 1080p (progressive) instead of 1080i (interlaced)?" Well, the answer is this: the TVs used in this test cannot accept a 1080p signal through HDMI. Even though the LCDs themselves are progressive scan devices and will happily accept a 720p signal, they will only take a 1080 signal if it is interlaced. If receiving a 1080i signal, the TV will then convert it internally to 720p for display on the screen (technically, 768p). With the introduction of HDMI v1.3, you may see more 1080p capable TVs, but I doubt these smaller sets will be so equipped due to cost reasons, at least in the near future.

[Knowname]

Tssh.... YEAH it took a long time lol. I had almost thought you had given up lol. And WOW!! You just told me.... ALL of what I already know! On a silver platter!

Translation: lol, no, I'm INCREDIBLY blown away by what you've gone through and I both pity you and thank you VERY MUCH!

Though I'm not sure what you mean by 1080i (I just use Catalysts' setting for 1080i) is 720p scaled up... yes, it's 720 or 540 lines (not sure wich), but it's INTERLACED ;p the desktop STILL looks like 1920x1080 (overscan issues aside). But anyway, as you found out there IS the normal amount of overscan (most dvds look fine as they're made to make up for this regaurding viewing on tvs). I have to use the 'safe res' ATI sets up at 1770x1000 or that 1152x648 or whatever res you mentioned. Yep, that's what I do, and as you said there's a big ole border around the side and as I prefer not to watch an interlaced display from this distance I'm pretty much stuck at 1152x... <sigh>

But, yeah, like you said, it's doable. I'd messed with powerstrip and different rez'/ timings for a few weeks here but have since given up. Nothing Powerstrip could do made it ANY better. Pstrip didn't even work half the time. in fact, may have even damaged my precious lcd!! (it blinks when initializing now!) So I uninstalled Pstrip. But thanks for the suggestion.

I actually DID find a rez via powerstrip that didn't frame the picture and made up for the top/ bottom (minimal) overscan... but I COULDN'T move the left/ right columns at ALL! Bah...

Also I don't know if you tried LOWER resolutions. I did, they look PERFECT half the time... only... they're LOWER resolutions. the vertical area is sometimes even less than some of the videos here!! lol Might as well just plug it in via the composite out on my video card (max 800x600).

And, yeah, VERY satisfied with the VIDEO quality!! Couldn't be better!!! It's a TV, VERY much a TV.

Thanks again for all the experimentation you had done (with all the access to such equipment you seem to have, I'd LOVE to have your job!!)! And I'll crack this book back open a bit for this occasion.

And as an incredibly RANDOM thought, I always get you and Orwell mixed up!! (Are you nurotic??) I highly suggest you check out the anime, Karin, if you liked Haruhi ^.^

[Knowname]

Now, just for my curiousity, I tried using a 23" Sony LCD TV (model KDL-23S2010). Essentially the same results as the Panasonic, but the Sony can do what I call "extra overscan". Using 1152 x 648 resolution, I can get rid of some or all the black border by adjusting a setting in the menu (Display Area adjustment). And when I used 1920 x 1080, it came up on the OSD as 1080i. But seeing as the native resolution of the Sony is also 1366 x 768, it obviously has to scale the picture like the Panasonic does. The Sony does have one thing going for it (which probably makes it more expensive, aside from the Sony name), it has a proper RGB PC monitor connection (VGA HD15). Using this connection eliminated all the issues with overscan (and underscan) and you get all the LCD computer monitor adjustments like phase/pitch and vertical/horizontal adjust. Unfortunately, VGA connections are analog, so technically, it is a poorer choice. But the Pros outweigh the Cons here.

lol the lcdtv I used (and broke by tipping it on it's side ) beforehand did PERFECT in this aspect (1280x720), I had NO problems straight out of the box! Wich is to say it wasn't broke so I didn't try to fix it! meaning I didn't really learn ANYTHING other than 1280x720 worked (and the monitor connections are in SUCH an INconvenient spot that it caused me to brake it so prematureley!!) This was the $500 Niko 26 inch. But other than a few other negatives that stop me from going back to that thing (such as DIRT POOR video quality and bad RADIATION emmisions, SERIOUSLY!), I would, I TOTALLY would! I'm almost to the point, though, that Tarantula pointed out. LCDTV + FULL TIME monitor = is still a pipe dream.... That Niko, with it's 2 component, 2 composite/ s-video, rgb, dvi connections PLUS a composite out was the very CENTERPEICE of my entertainment hub and with the public 'recluse' that I am ;p I can REALLY use the space (not to mention the TV out... even if the lack of hdcp keeps it from outputting HD images.... stupid DRM *note I didn't get to try this with the Niko, but I doubt it did HD out... I wish I DID get to try it if I ever decide to get a new one as NO reviewer would test THAT, but... for now I'll assume it doesn't!

OH! also I don't know if you noticed, but some tvs (this Panasonic) do 4:3 simply by cutting into the 16:9 picture! I don't know if that is because that's more appropriate for DVDs and stuff (as it's NOT a monitor), but the Niko did a PROPER 4:3 adjustment keeping the WHOLE picture, adjusting the aspect ratio (like Zoom or VLC would do it). Just another random thought ^.^

If I had the money I would TOTALLY go for the Hyundai Q321 and see how that works though... /never learns... buut I gotta pay this off first. I'm keeping it in the living room. It's an EXQUISITE TV!

[Knowname]

lol! from TaranT's link

if you're using win XP you could try turning "cleartype" off, it's in the display properties section under appearance i think.

and Willen suggested it turned on I think lol. But later in TaranT's linked thread it said cleartype works sometimes, doesn't other times. Turning it off was the FIRST thing I did though (I'm, often times, supprised at how geeky I AM! knowing all of this worthless information before they become WORTHY realy is TOO COOL! ;p Not to say I don't appreciate suggestions all the same. I don't know ALL the worthless information of the world)... cleartype didn't seem to do anything though. I don't know, I REALLY didn't spend much time with it on so I'll try it for a few days. Couldn't hurt any lol.