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Postby dwchang » Mon Jun 09, 2003 11:30 am

the Black Monarch wrote:
alternatefutures wrote: Athlon 64 later this year and Intel releases Prescott early next year.


This "Athlon 64" that you speak of... don't you mean the Opteron?

Prescott is just the P4, only with a smaller die size.


Athlon 64 != Opteron

Opteron is the server chip codenamed "Sledgehammer" and Athlon 64 is the client side (i.e. desktop computers) codenamed "Clawhammer." Oh and I'm fairly confident in this being that I work there and specifically work in the Chip department.

As for Prescott, yeah, it's a die-shrink to the 90 nm process.
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Postby alternatefutures » Mon Jun 09, 2003 4:17 pm

Prescott != 90nm P4

Amoung the improvements:

L1 cache from 8K to 16K
L2 cache from 512K to 1M
13 new instructions (PNI)
Advanced Hyperthreading (Doubling the integer register file from 128 words to 256, it could possibly support up to four threads)
LaGrande security technology (which may be more of a bad thing than good)
"better pre-fetching"
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Postby dwchang » Mon Jun 09, 2003 5:01 pm

alternatefutures wrote:Prescott != 90nm P4

Amoung the improvements:

L1 cache from 8K to 16K
L2 cache from 512K to 1M
13 new instructions (PNI)
Advanced Hyperthreading (Doubling the integer register file from 128 words to 256, it could possibly support up to four threads)
LaGrande security technology (which may be more of a bad thing than good)
"better pre-fetching"


Well it IS a 90 nm P4...WITH improvements. I didn't feel like posting them since I work for the enemy. I mean it is still being called a P4 and it is a die-shrink yes? Then, Prescott = P4

I mean P4's ever since their introduction have had improvements (just as AMD's athlon has), but it's still a P4 yes?
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Postby alternatefutures » Mon Jun 09, 2003 5:23 pm

Ehhh... it's not really clear if it's going to be called a P4. Judging from the rehtoric coming from Intel spokesmen, you'd half expect it to be called a Pentium 5 (which I find amusing, actually). The P4 has actually had a long run for the Pentium family.
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Postby dwchang » Mon Jun 09, 2003 5:38 pm

alternatefutures wrote:Ehhh... it's not really clear if it's going to be called a P4. Judging from the rehtoric coming from Intel spokesmen, you'd half expect it to be called a Pentium 5 (which I find amusing, actually). The P4 has actually had a long run for the Pentium family.


Yeah I heard the same thing about them finally ++1 to the Pentium line, but then heard it got shot down and it'd remain P4.

A good argument though would be that Prescott is still architecturally a P4. There are no real changes to the pipeline that would warrant the "P5" name. P3 -> P4 had significant changes architecturally like going from 12 (or was it 13) pipeline stages to 20+.

In conclusion, I think they'll stick with P4 since Prescott is just another tweak of the P4 core and not a big architectural change (which I hear is in the works).
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Postby the Black Monarch » Mon Jun 09, 2003 5:52 pm

That's never stopped Intel. The Pentium Pro, Pentium II, Pentium III, and Celeron all used the same architecture (again, with "improvements")

A full megabyte of L2 cache? Yum-MAY!
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Postby dwchang » Mon Jun 09, 2003 9:07 pm

the Black Monarch wrote:That's never stopped Intel. The Pentium Pro, Pentium II, Pentium III, and Celeron all used the same architecture (again, with "improvements")

A full megabyte of L2 cache? Yum-MAY!


Uhm, again you'd be VERY mistaken.

The Pentium II and Pentium III have big changes in the architecture in the pipeline stages themselves, the super-scalarness (ha a new word) and memory. You're very mistaken on this one and this is coming from a Computer Architect.

The Celeron of course is still just a modified P4/P3 and IMO sucks ass. Just another way Intel has duped consumers into buying crap, but then again this is coming from an AMD Computer Engineer.
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Postby klinky » Tue Jun 10, 2003 6:58 am

The celeron was not crap :cry: Atleast everything after the 300A. Because it was basically 128KB fullspeed ondie cache, vs. 512KB half speed offdie cache. Celerons overclocked better as well. 300A was known for going up to 500 - 550Mhz. :cry: Those were the glory days.

The Duron is a knock-off of the Celeron silly :P. Same concept. Had the same core, just neutered cache. Duron 600 ^_^ sweet processor. Overclocked mine to 950Mhz. It POST'd at 1Ghz but then failed on boot :cry:
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Postby klinky » Tue Jun 10, 2003 7:00 am

I should mention the Duron was a knock off the Celeron in that it had the same core as the Athlon but half the cache.
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Postby dwchang » Tue Jun 10, 2003 2:59 pm

klinky wrote:The celeron was not crap :cry: Atleast everything after the 300A. Because it was basically 128KB fullspeed ondie cache, vs. 512KB half speed offdie cache. Celerons overclocked better as well. 300A was known for going up to 500 - 550Mhz. :cry: Those were the glory days.

The Duron is a knock-off of the Celeron silly :P. Same concept. Had the same core, just neutered cache. Duron 600 ^_^ sweet processor. Overclocked mine to 950Mhz. It POST'd at 1Ghz but then failed on boot :cry:


Well to a degree I agree since the Celeron/Duron architectures are fundamentally just knock-offs of their respective companies, but at the same time...they're "crap" to me when compared to the "real thing." Given...they get the job done and are supposed to be the "value" segment and they...well...do fulfill that. So I guess it's "crap" if you want pure performance, but if you want cheap processors that work...they are a sucess...
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Postby the Black Monarch » Tue Jun 10, 2003 10:17 pm

dwchang wrote:The Pentium II and Pentium III have big changes in the architecture in the pipeline stages themselves, the super-scalarness (ha a new word) and memory. You're very mistaken on this one and this is coming from a Computer Architect.


That is contrary to what I've been told by a large number of hackers, magazines, and computer historians, who all agree that both processors used the P6 core. But maybe you're right and they're all wrong (seriously, I mean it).

dwchang wrote:The Celeron of course is still just a modified P4/P3 and IMO sucks ass. Just another way Intel has duped consumers into buying crap, but then again this is coming from an AMD Computer Engineer.


No, your AMD employee status isn't biasing you this time; I agree with you on all of that except the "P4/P3" part. The P3 and P4 use different architectures, the Celeron can't be a ripoff of both :) (especially since the P4 came out after the Celeron...)
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Postby NicholasDWolfwood » Tue Jun 10, 2003 10:18 pm

So?

Just because a chip came out after the Celeron doesn't mean Intel couldn't have used say a developmental architecture.
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Postby dwchang » Tue Jun 10, 2003 10:51 pm

the Black Monarch wrote:
That is contrary to what I've been told by a large number of hackers, magazines, and computer historians, who all agree that both processors used the P6 core. But maybe you're right and they're all wrong (seriously, I mean it).


Not to be mean, but hackers and magazines aren't really the most qualified people to be saying something like that since they don't...well..design computers. Computer architects are the only ones who can state such claims since they know the designs. Also when Intel moves from PX -> PX+1, that's because it's a new archictecture. I hear P5 is on the way soon.

As for P6, I think you made a typo :).
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Postby dwchang » Tue Jun 10, 2003 10:52 pm

NicholasDWolfwood wrote:So?

Just because a chip came out after the Celeron doesn't mean Intel couldn't have used say a developmental architecture.


but Celerons came out AFTER the PIII and is based on it's core, not the other way around.
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Postby the Black Monarch » Tue Jun 10, 2003 11:28 pm

dwchang wrote:As for P6, I think you made a typo


Oh my god... I don't want to rain on your parade DW, but I think you just showed that you don't know as much about CPU architecture as you'd like us all to think. The P6 core formed the basis of the Pentium Pro/2/3/Celeron. It was so named because if Intel had continued numering their processors (286, 386, 486), the Pentium would have been the 5x86 (hence the name, pent- being a prefix meaning five) and the Pentium Pro would have been the 6x86. Extrapolating, the P4 would be the 7x86 and the Opteron will be the first 8th-generation CPU.

This is supported by the movie "Hackers," wherein Angelina Jolie's laptop is said to have a "P6 processor - three times faster than a Pentium" (no, this movie was not my primary source of information on this subject :) [although my friend George claims that he personally knows the real Zero Cool/Crash Override, who he says now goes by the name Death Veggie])
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