targa or BMP

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targa or BMP

Postby ffxdean » Fri Oct 12, 2007 6:59 am

Well i have no idea where this goes but here it is anyways. Which is better quality and more flexible to use for animation?
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Postby Qyot27 » Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:25 am

Unless Targa is a lossy format (which I'm not sure about, having barely worked with that type of image), then it shouldn't matter, although I've never seen a program that has support for the things save for maybe The GIMP.

BMP in this sense (I'm assuming VirtualDub's image sequence save) is almost always uncompressed - no quality loss whatsoever. Just make sure that your Compression settings are on Uncompressed RGB because otherwise it will try to save the bitmaps with whatever video codec you have active and you won't be able to open them.
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Postby Qyot27 » Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:35 am

Here we go:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truevision_TGA

At least according to that article, I can't see how using Targa or BMP would make much of a difference.
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Postby post-it » Fri Oct 12, 2007 10:11 pm

TGA, TIFF, PNG = LossLess.

BMP, GIF, JPG = Lossy.
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Postby Scintilla » Fri Oct 12, 2007 10:26 pm

... and how can you make BMP lossy?
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Postby Willen » Sat Oct 13, 2007 5:19 am

Scintilla wrote:... and how can you make BMP lossy?

The only way I can think of is to drop the color depth.

But you could do the same thing to TIFF and PNG which technically would also make them lossy too. :(
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Re: targa or BMP

Postby post-it » Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:38 am

ffxdean wrote:Well i have no idea where this goes but here it is anyways. Which is better quality and more flexible to use for animation?
.. it took a while to find it .. TarGA 8-)

I refer to the studies done and then implemented by Stefan Eckart ( one of the primary First MPEG Encoding Programmers from the 1990's ) who defined the differences in ALL formats of images, "MPEG works best for 24 bit TrueColor images. Use Targa (Targa and .TGA are trademarks of Truevision Inc.) format files (usually identified by a .TGA suffix). Both top-down and bottom-up scan orders are supported." .. the subject being referred to was I, P, B, Intra.mat and Inter.mat compression for ISO 11172-2 encoding of Single Layer Mpeg I and other constructions of Mpeg Formats.

8-) .. you .. you really don't want to know what was said about .BMP's T_T
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Postby Scintilla » Sun Oct 21, 2007 11:32 am

@Post-it:

You know, I'm pretty sure the OP was talking about still images (using the word "animation" in the sense that the source is animé, not that s/he wants to store more than one frame per file).

If that's true, then things like P-frames, B-frames, and shoving the frames into MPEG containers are totally irrelevant.

You still haven't answered the question about how .BMP can be lossy (barring reduction of bit depth, which you can also do with Targa anyway), and if .BMP and Targa are both lossless, then what's the difference?
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Postby post-it » Sun Oct 21, 2007 12:44 pm

@Scintilla:

.. the studies that were done on BMP and TGA were tested at 24bit color. what was revealed, and was understood by anyone who was on-line in 1993 including myself, is that TGA TIFF and PNG could not be incomplete ( corrupt ) and viewed. formats like GIF BMP and JPG's "could" be viewed when incomplete ( corrupt ) and they were then assessed "as being Lossy"
.. the studies were re-evaluated in 1999 and the same conclusions were reached! what is interesting to note from the 1999 study is one more test that confirmed -again- the Lossy state of BMP's were the "Lack of Bit-MaP's to retain their structures" when Edited more than three times ( Degradation )
[[ it was found that TGA's could retain their structures up to 14 edits before Degradation could be measured. ]] which I still say today must have had something to do with the Editors being used `more than the Formats being tested.

.. I bought those programs back then plus had PhotoWorks 3.0 and Paint Shop Pro 3.0 as well.
using Paint Shop Pro 3 .. BMP's and TGA's both failed after two edits.
using PhotoWorks 3.0 .. the studies were comfirmed.
using Portable Bitmap Format of Jef Poskanzers PBMPLUS package confirmed this too.
using Image Alchemy took quite a while to convert BMP's to TGA but could never convert the quality from TGA's to BMP's -- which I thought was rather silly!
using EagleImage .. the degradation is MORE than quite apparent T_T

hmmm . . I'm guessing that it all depends on "what Editor" your using as to the Amount of Degradation that will be noticeable or not .. and if your Image Editor is using the guideline's ( Patented Licenses ) for the different Formats .. and its designed structures ( as stated by those Patents ) properly! .. otherwise, ALL Conclusions are Invalid 8-) 8-) 8-)
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Postby LantisEscudo » Sun Oct 21, 2007 1:47 pm

I'm going to need a link to these studies, post-it. Those conclusions seem really sketchy to me, especially given that definition of "lossy."

Plus, if PNG was involved, it can't have been from 1993, since PNG as a format didn't exist until 1996.
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Postby Athena » Sun Oct 21, 2007 3:40 pm

I second the request for citations. One can hardly consider themselves in academic good order if they do not provide citations for evidence used.
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Postby post-it » Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:23 am

.. hehe .. isn't it amazing how patents being approved and people ingoring those patents can become "the facts" in a case that should not even be an issue .. hehe

.. "The LZW algorithm was incorporated from an open publication, and without knowledge that Unisys was pursuing a patent. The patent was brought to our attention, much to our displeasure, after the GIF spec had been published and passed into wide use.'' Tim Oren [then] Vice President of Future Technology at CompuServe.
.. "There are claims that Unisys was made aware of this as early as 1989 and chose to ignore the use in "pure software'' the documents to substantiate this claim have apparently been lost. Greg Roelofs
.. "Whether due to ongoing financial difficulties or as part of the industry-wide bonk on the head provided by the World Wide Web, Unisys in 1993 began aggressively pursuing commercial vendors of software-only LZW implementations . . ! ??? ! ?"

T_T

.. Unisys in 1993 began aggressively pursuing commercial vendors .. I thought you said that PNG didn't exist until 1995 ?? .. true; the name was changed four times .. but .. how can that be?? .. unless .. I grew-up during those times and remember what was going-on in those days? .. naah; that can't be it....
http://www.libpng.org/pub/png/pnghist.html ... Patents for Pure Software before Windows came along 0_o .. Anyone remember Sperry Univac, the leaders in Visual Police PhotoGrapic Evidence by 1985 .. or did Sperry, Univac, IBM and/or Unisys even exist before MicroSoft? .. http://www.libpng.org/pub/png/slashpng-1999.html .. I'm sure that Control Data still has most of finds of the MPEG research by the LZW patents and work compiled by and then implemented by Stefan Eckart.
.. PBS had a "Specail" on Steve Jobs in 1996 called "Triumph of the Nerds" .. in it, Steve Jobs was talking about "A Copier Company" who had Visual Graphics of the Daily New Paper "on Display" with a long-gated TV Screen at 1967 ( the street name excapes me ) and from it was born "The MAC" and "Lisa" .. Mouse and Graphics based Apples. .. OOPS!; forgot, it wasn't called "the Internet" back then - sorry ... it also changed its name T_T .. I can still remember using a Modem to access Comp-u-serv with a 1-800 number and it was free of charge to access "what we refer to today as the Internet." .. favorite places to visit, "The Mother Of All BBS's" .. yup! BBS Software was the original HTML software of the late 1980's .. well, that and IRC's which no one but College Professors could understand in those days 8-)

.. why bother with this old stuff about BBS's, Lisa, LZW, The MAC and PNG ?? because knowing where things actually began lets us ignore what we have today. Modems -- nobody uses them anymore! ( the first one I remember using came with my Radio Shack Model II tape storage Computer back in the 1970's ) Did you know that every computer made after 1976 used "BASIC" in one form or another? The Ti99 from Texas Instruments was the 2nd most affordable pint-sized computer ever made and it came in Kit Form ( you built it and programmed its ROM. ) .. yes, you heard right; "the Operating System" of the average Home Computer in the 1970's was in a ROM ( no virus can destroy a ROM ) [ kinda makes you wonder why we ever stopped using ROM's for Operating Systems -- talk about Virus Free computing ^__^ ]

.. it would be nice if what we believed in, in the 1970's, were true today with computers: in your pocket was your ROM, it could be plugged in to any computer. Update that to today by adding something we didn't have back then but we knew it was coming: Plug-in your USB Flash Memory for the Programs you want to run and Plug-in the USB Flash Memory to use as your Hard Drive. Connect to the Internet via a Hard-Wired Firewall and explore the Internet on ITS Browser. .. too simple you say? .. Moble Celuar Phones do it all the time -- why not have that freedom with your Computer?
.. kinda makes you wonder why The Supreme Court broke-up Ma-Bell in 1974 if Computers and Graphics didn't exist before 1995 considering that it was the Tele-Phones Camera and people using your telephone number against you while you were out shopping that prompted The Supreme Court to hand down THAT verdict in 1974. .. 0_0 .. TelePhone Cameras, why they weren't invented until Windows 95 was released .. right? .....

@LantisEscudo and Kionon .. somewhere along the line, people have forgotten the past by only stating half-truths .. those half-truths are being displayed as "The Truth in Fact!" and I'm as guilty as the next one when it comes to believing what I've read. However, as your teachers once told you in College, "Their Truth is not The Truth because They Are Trying To Make A Point as to what They Believe Should Be True."
.. what should have been remembered about PNG not being called PNG until 1995 was the question of, "where did GIF come from" :?:
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Postby LantisEscudo » Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:05 am

A few facts, taken directly from the authoritative source of PNG's history.
  • The first draft of the PNG specification, first called PBF, was published to comp.graphics, comp.compression, and comp.infosystems.www.providers on January 4, 1995 by Thomas Boutell.
  • The name PNG was adopted in Draft 5 of the specification on January 23, 1995.
  • The basic specification was frozen at Draft 9 on March 7, 1995. Further drafts would only refine and clarify what was already set down.
  • The PNG specification 1.0 was published as a W3C Proposed Recommendation on July 1, 1996.
  • The Proposed Recommendation was confirmed on October 1, 1996.
  • The "image/png" MIME type was approved by the IANA on October 14, 1996.

But all of this is beside the point.

Bottom line, you've made claims that you say are backed up by studies. We want to see those studies to verify your claims. Link or shut up.
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Postby dokidoki » Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:11 am

There's only one way to resolve this.
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Postby Athena » Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:21 am

dokidoki wrote:There's only one way to resolve this.


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THREAD OVER.
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