Integrating 2D and 3D

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Postby trythil » Tue Jun 10, 2003 9:55 am

koronoru wrote:
trythil wrote:
the Black Monarch wrote:Premiere automatically duplicates frames when you put 23.9 FPS footage into a 24 FPS timeline.


Who said I used Premiere?


He does sort of have a point, though - do you really need to edit directly from the DVDs? Because if you're ripping to hard drive first, it should be possible to do the equivalent of AssumeFPS in your rip, without having to do the recompression that I think you're trying to avoid. I'm pretty sure transcode will let you pass through an MPEG stream and just change the frames-per-second code without changing anything else. Here's a thought:

* Rip to 29.970. Speed it up 0.1% to get 30.
* Make a sped-up copy of your soundtrack. You can do that by making the soundtrack as a raw PCM file and using sox to resample it from 44100 to 44144; then tell the editor that it's still 44100 audio.
* Animate at 30, using the sped-up soundtrack.
* Edit at 30 using the sped-up source material, the 30fps animation, and the sped-up soundtrack.
* Slow it down to 29.970 and do your final encode using the original really 44100 soundtrack.
* If you want a 23.976 version, apply whatever inverse telecining. This will suck for the animation that was done at 30, but you said you couldn't do the IVTC first (which is what I'd prefer).

Basically the same thing the Premiere users do, because it too can't handle fractional framerates.


Well, I don't have to edit from the exact DVD data. It is possible to inverse telecine before I do anything; I'll end up with a very nice 23.976fps stream to work from, and Cinelerra will handle that just fine at that framerate.

Here's the reason why I haven't been doing that, though: The problem is that I'm a stickler for quality, and it's very difficult to retain the original DVD quality with the same size. Any conversion that I do inevitably leads me to re-compress the video data into a very lossless, but VERY big, file.

However, until now, I didn't know that transcode would let me pass through an MPEG stream and just change the fps...I always thought that it did some sort of recompression no matter what you did. I'll have to give that a try...

For now, though, I've just been generating the 3D scenes at 30fps, and then slowing them 0.1% to 29.97fps, which I think is a variant of the things that people have been telling me to do in the first place ;) I get 29.97fps progressive this way (which is weird, I know), but it's easy to re-interlace, so I think I'll be OK. The MPEG-2 copy output to TV will reveal the correctness (or, much more likely, horrible incorrectness) of what I'm doing...
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Postby trythil » Tue Jun 10, 2003 10:00 am

Something else (gah, double posts):

Blender's "Fields" option /seems/ to do what I want it to do (i.e. generate interlaced footage at whatever fps you give it), so I'll go ahead and give that a try too. If that's the case, then this might be easier than I thought. Or maybe I've been making this harder than it has to be through my horrible misunderstandings of frame rates :P
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Postby koronoru » Tue Jun 10, 2003 11:01 am

In a perfect world, you'd be able to tell Cinelerra to speed the 29.970 rip up to 30 without duplicating frames. Actually, I think that might already be possible if you right-click on the file in the "resources" window after loading it.
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Postby trythil » Tue Jun 10, 2003 11:18 am

koronoru wrote:In a perfect world, you'd be able to tell Cinelerra to speed the 29.970 rip up to 30 without duplicating frames. Actually, I think that might already be possible if you right-click on the file in the "resources" window after loading it.


Yeah, you can change the frame rate at which a resource plays back.
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Postby trythil » Tue Jun 10, 2003 4:35 pm

Looks like my problem's gone. After enabling field rendering and tweaking a couple of other things, Blender generated 340 frames of beautiful NTSC interlaced footage (bet that you'll never hear "beautiful" and "interlaced" in the same context ever again :P ) Thanks for all your help, everyone ;)
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Postby the Black Monarch » Tue Jun 10, 2003 10:07 pm

trythil wrote:Who said I used Premiere?


AbsoluteDestiny wrote:I think Linux is another concept that is beyond the comprehension of the black monarch.


Who said he used Linux? (yes, this time I actually read over what he said :) )
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Postby NicholasDWolfwood » Tue Jun 10, 2003 10:15 pm

...he *does* use Linux, you idiot.
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Postby trythil » Wed Jun 11, 2003 1:19 am

the Black Monarch wrote:
trythil wrote:Who said I used Premiere?


AbsoluteDestiny wrote:I think Linux is another concept that is beyond the comprehension of the black monarch.


Who said he used Linux? (yes, this time I actually read over what he said :) )


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There's my editing station as of right now, running fvwm on XFree86 4.3.0, and being bogged down with an assload of processes.

Considering that Cinelerra runs on Linux and FreeBSD only, XFree86 is predominately for UNIX platforms (though a Cygwin Win32 port does exist), and fvwm works best on UNIX boxes...I'm not sure how else to prove this :P This is also why AVISynth solutions don't work for me ;)
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Postby trythil » Wed Jun 11, 2003 1:22 am

trythil wrote:There's my editing station as of right now, running fvwm on XFree86 4.3.0, and being bogged down with an assload of processes.

Considering that Cinelerra runs on Linux and FreeBSD only, XFree86 is predominately for UNIX platforms (though a Cygwin Win32 port does exist), and fvwm works best on UNIX boxes...I'm not sure how else to prove this :P This is also why AVISynth solutions don't work for me ;)


Wow, I left out the most important part. I need sleep, caffeine and Fuu.

Code: Select all
trythil@visions rayearth $ uname -a
Linux visions 2.4.20-xfs-r3 #1 Tue Apr 22 18:00:23 MDT 2003 i686 Pentium III (Coppermine) GenuineIntel GNU/Linux


Hope that helps ;)
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Postby the Black Monarch » Wed Jun 11, 2003 2:51 am

trythil wrote:Considering that Cinelerra runs on Linux and FreeBSD only, XFree86 is predominately for UNIX platforms


Considering that I am an official Microsoft Whipping Boy (tm), I would have no way of knowing this.

Thank you for enlightening me.
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Postby NicholasDWolfwood » Wed Jun 11, 2003 6:09 pm

trythil wrote:
trythil wrote:There's my editing station as of right now, running fvwm on XFree86 4.3.0, and being bogged down with an assload of processes.

Considering that Cinelerra runs on Linux and FreeBSD only, XFree86 is predominately for UNIX platforms (though a Cygwin Win32 port does exist), and fvwm works best on UNIX boxes...I'm not sure how else to prove this :P This is also why AVISynth solutions don't work for me ;)


Wow, I left out the most important part. I need sleep, caffeine and Fuu.

Code: Select all
trythil@visions rayearth $ uname -a
Linux visions 2.4.20-xfs-r3 #1 Tue Apr 22 18:00:23 MDT 2003 i686 Pentium III (Coppermine) GenuineIntel GNU/Linux


Hope that helps ;)


Isn't a Coppermine the SMP version of the PIII, or is a different architecture, or what?

I know, I'm confused.
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Postby trythil » Wed Jun 11, 2003 8:48 pm

The Coppermine was produced on a .18 micron process; the original Pentium III, the Katmai, was produced on a .25 micron process. The Coppermine also adds 256 kB of L2 cache and a 133 MHz bus.

Not sure about SMP, though.
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Postby klinky » Wed Jun 11, 2003 11:14 pm

Also I believe the coppermine was the first to copper interconnects.

2CPU reports you can use CuMines in SMP mode.

Trythil, how is the speed of Cinelerra? For doing something like what you're doing there in that picture :O. Looks like some masks and blurs and stuffs.

Also is that a dual monitor setup you have there or virtual desktop :o
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Postby the Black Monarch » Thu Jun 12, 2003 12:22 am

pcmech.com wrote:Intel released the Pentium III "Katmai" processor in February of 1999, running at 450 MHz on a 100MHz bus. Katmai introduced the SSE instruction set, which was basically an extension of MMX that again improved the performance on 3D apps designed to use the new ability. Also dubbed MMX2, SSE contained 70 new instructions, with four simultaneous instructions able to be performed simultaneously. This original Pentium III worked off what was a slightly improved P6 core, so the chip was well suited to multimedia applications. The chip saw controversy, though, when Intel decided to include integrated "processor serial number" (PSN) on Katmai. the PSN was designed to be able to be read over a network, even the internet. The idea, as Intel saw it, was to increase the level of security in online transactions. End users saw it differently. They saw it as an invasion of privacy. After taking a hit in the eye from the PR perspective and getting some pressure from their customers, Intel eventually allowed the tag to be turned off in the BIOS. Katmai eventually saw 600 MHz, but Intel quickly moved on to the Coppermine.

In April of 2000, Intel released their Pentium III Coppermine. While Katmai had 512 KB of L2 cache, Coppermine had half that at only 256 KB. But, the cache was located directly on the CPU core rather than on the daughtercard as typified in previous Slot 1 processors. This made the smaller cache an actual non-issue, because performance benefited. Coppermine also took on a 0.18 micron design and the newer Single Edge Contact Cartridge 2 (SECC 2) package. With SECC 2, the surrounding cartridge only covered one side of the package, as opposed to previous slotted processors. What's more, Intel again saw the logic they had when they took Celeron over to Socket 370, so they eventually released versions of Coppermine in socket format. Coppermine also supported the 133 MHz front side bus. Coppermine proved to be a performance chip and it was and still is used by many PCs. Coppermine eventually saw 1+ GHz
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Postby trythil » Thu Jun 12, 2003 1:13 am

Congratulations, that's what I said :P
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