death metal

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death metal

Postby l Integrate Satan l » Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:05 pm

why is it that whenever a debate arises on the fact that technical death metal musicians are the most creative and talented musicians in the metal genre, the people arguing otherwise seem to deny that fact even though the proof shows itself predominantly?
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Postby Flint the Dwarf » Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:17 pm

Because they don't like death metal?
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Postby Flint the Dwarf » Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:20 pm

Double post. :o

Anyway, even as a fan of death metal (mostly melodic), I freely admit there are musicians from other fields that can match up to technical death metalists. Granted, most of them are in progressive metal or rock, because those are good genres for showcasing talent.
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Postby l Integrate Satan l » Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:29 pm

Flint the Dwarf wrote:Double post. :o

Anyway, even as a fan of death metal (mostly melodic), I freely admit there are musicians from other fields that can match up to technical death metalists. Granted, most of them are in progressive metal or rock, because those are good genres for showcasing talent.


maybe I see your point, but the only band I can think of off the top of my head that even comes close to most technical death metal bands is Dream Theatre, I could quite possibly list about 200 hundred death metal bands alone off the top of my head that surpass Dream Theatre's musical prowess
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Postby Flint the Dwarf » Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:39 pm

And who made you the judge of musical prowess? You may like every death metal band ever more than Dream Theater, and maybe they play faster, but that doesn't make them more talented. Speed does not equate to talent. Odd times signatures (ie Meshuggah) does not equate to talent. Being able to growl does not equate to talent. Blazing double bass does not equate to talent.

What screams talent to me is composition, depth, and diversity. Some death metal bands have got it, but I sincerely doubt there are 200 of 'em.
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Postby Otohiko » Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:57 pm

Flint the Dwarf wrote:And who made you the judge of musical prowess?


Exactly. Where is the proof? :roll:

Frankly, I think the whole idea of trying to associate creativity, originality and musical ability with a blanket genre is retarded. The fact that you can stick something into a nice generic pigeonhole, to me, is already a sign of lacking originality.
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Postby NicholasDWolfwood » Mon Mar 06, 2006 11:46 pm

I think that some of the death metal musicians out there are pretentious, for example Flo Mounier (specifically on Once Was Not). The drums didn't have to be all the way up front on that album, and for what the rest of the band was playing, he squeezed too much stuff into each song. It was absolutely rediculous.

However, despite the pretentiousness of some musicians in DM, it's my personal opinion that the technicality of it is only surpassed by jazz. After all, jazz drummers came up with the basic blast beat, and jazz musicians were composing in syncopated rhythms far before death metal was even created.

And also, look at something like Necrophagist. Mohammad is entirely self-taught, and look at some of the things he pulls off, cleanly (or pretty close to cleanly), while playing at very high tempos.

Blazing double bass does not equate to talent.

I will dispute this comment, for the simple fact that it takes talent to keep it together at 260bpm. It's very difficult to play double bass at 260 in pure 16ths, and do different fills on top of it (like Derek Roddy and George Kollias, for example, incorporate)

Odd times signatures (ie Meshuggah) does not equate to talent.

It doesn't? News to me. I guess playing 4/4 on the cymbols and 23/18 on the rest of the kit doesn't take talnet. :roll: (Or maybe it was the other way around, I don't remember)

200 hundred

That would mean "20,000", bud.
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Postby Flint the Dwarf » Mon Mar 06, 2006 11:50 pm

Let me put it this way, there is more to talent than the ability to play skillfully and quickly.
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Postby )v(ajin Koji » Tue Mar 07, 2006 11:31 am

Flint the Dwarf wrote:Let me put it this way, there is more to talent than the ability to play skillfully and quickly.


Alot of people seem to think that if you play fast you're a much better musician. This seems to be something that a lot of guitarists hold dear to their hearts when in actual fact there is so much more to playing guitar than playing shred. Another form of skill, I believe, is the abillity to fuse other genres flawlessly into a song to make it your own genre. The Police and Sting on his own have done this and made some amazing songs. Also, who can forget Bob Marley? Blues, Rock and of course Reggae all contributed to his historic sound.

I think saying that Death metal is the most talented genre of music is as stupid as saying it isn't talented at all. There is a lot of talent there in the drumming and guitaring I know and I'm sure you'll asure me the bassing and singing is extremely talented too. It's not a genre that I pick up and listen to often, but I have learnt some because I play guitar and appriciate all styles (even Pop :o ). Really I think that no genre is really more talented than any other.
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Postby Otohiko » Tue Mar 07, 2006 11:36 am

Playing fast is easier than playing slow. -R.F.

:roll:
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Postby NicholasDWolfwood » Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:52 pm

Other way around. That's the one thing I hate about "tr00 death metalheads" who say Opeth and bands like them aren't death metal. They have all of the characteristics of death metal, except that they have acoustic/clean passages as well as the distorted/growling. I think it takes more skill to slow down from 200bpm and play a clean passage at 120bpm, than to go at 240bpm for a whole song.

Another thing is that many guitarists are stuck up on tremelo picking, especially in death metal.

[quote=KarlSanders]I see alot of bands where the guitarists are just "trempicking"
as fast as they can go ,
with no regard for actually playing in time with the song-
and that is so fucking obnoxioux to me to hear it euphemized with the
word "trempicking"
its just bullshit if its not actually in time. [/quote]

That's what Karl Sanders, of Nile, had to say about tremelo picking. I agree with him completely.
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Postby Flint the Dwarf » Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:09 pm

NicholasDWolfwood wrote:Other way around.

About what? Oto's comment? Sounds like you're agreeing with him, which has kind of been our point all along...
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Postby Otohiko » Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:17 pm

It's not just random frippery on my part, either. Once you realize that speed is only one dimension of music, it makes a lot of sense. It couldn't be more relevant for any instrument other than the guitar, since the beast is very articulate. It might be called an 'axe', but it's not an axe. And being able to play slowly but with taste on it is a huge achievement in itself. 200+ bpm takes a lot of physical strength, to be sure, but that's not the only measure of skill.
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Postby Kai Stromler » Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:25 pm

For the short version, everyone in this thread agrees, except the OP. This is because there is no blanket definition that anyone can use for "creative and talented" that represents anything like a linear scale, and because the OP has apparently confused this with "technical agility".

I'd be interested in hearing the OP's definition of "technical death metal"; once you start listening to Atheist, Human and later Death, maybe Candiria and Dysrhythmia (depending on how wide a definition we're using), it's hard to escape the conclusion that since these bands are pulling in influences from other places, mostly jazz, other kinds of music can be just as creative and as technically adroit.

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Postby Bardiel13 » Tue Mar 07, 2006 5:40 pm

It's true that many (technical) death metal bands ooze talent, but I'd say progressive metal, now-a-days, takes the most talent to play. Then again, there's at least one band in every genre with the same amount of talent as a band in another genre, so who really cares, eh?
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